Questions about Leerburg.....

I am a professional dog trainer and own all of Ed Frawley's videos. I also correspond with him frequently. Just to mention, Mr. Frawley and Cesar Millan are friends and Cesar has spent a lot of time at the Leerburg kennels before he became a celebrity. Before I discovered Ed Frawley and Cesar Millan, I was a positive only trainer and still am with certain dogs because there are soft dogs that can't take harsh corrections. I like to think of myself as a well rounded trainer because I evaluate a dog before the training ever begins and use a training method that will work for that particular dog. Some people on this forum tend to believe that I put a prong collar on every dog I train and use harsh corrections on every dog. This is simply not true. Once a dog has proofed a command 100% but occasionally won't comply, it gets a correction whether it's a simple "NO" or a pop on a leash or a mild stimulation from a training collar. My own dogs respond to "NO" when they don't comply with a command. I don't yell, I don't sound angry, I just say "NO" in a firm but normal voice. Like someone said, Cesar is not a trainer, he rehabilitates dogs and if you watch him, he will pop the leash while he is walking with a squirrely dog. Cesar uses calm and assertive attitude which is exactly how a pack leader behaves. Ed Frawley is the same way in his attitude around dogs. I don't agree with some of Mr. Frawley's methods so I use what I like and disregard the rest. Keep in mind that Mr. Frawley trained protection and police dogs for years and years but if you watch his video on Basic Obedience Training, you will see that his training mirrors many other trainers. It's simple and effective. I like to research training techniques from every trainer I can find and use what has been proven to be effective. I believe some people have misconceptions about Ed Frawley's training methods because they haven't watched the videos and they don't see that Mr. Frawley is NOT "old school" and he even talks about the old, harsh training methods and how he doesn't use them. There are many people who still think Cesar Millan is a dog trainer and they discount his methods but what they don't understand is, Cesar is NOT training dogs that have behavior problems. He is trying to undo the behavior problems that humans created in their dogs. While Cesar is working with the dogs, he is also working with the owners and THAT is the problem! Like he has said before, when we humanize dogs, we create problems for the dog. When dogs are left on their own, they have no problems. It's when they live with humans that problems occur. (I'm not quoting Cesar exactly).Trainers are like doctors. Their methods may vary somewhat but they all are seeking the same goal. And just like doctors, you will find some good ones and some bad ones. Find the one that best suits your dog's needs.

ORIGINAL: ldyharley

 Just to mention, Mr. Frawley and Cesar Millan are friends and Cesar has spent a lot of time at the Leerburg kennels before he became a celebrity.

Are you postive about this?  I've never heard this mentioned by Ed or anyone else on the Leerburg message boards.  Cesar Millan is based in California, while Frawley is in Wisconsin.

ORIGINAL: ldyharley

I am a professional dog trainer and own all of Ed Frawley's videos. I also correspond with him frequently. Just to mention, Mr. Frawley and Cesar Millan are friends and Cesar has spent a lot of time at the Leerburg kennels before he became a celebrity. Before I discovered Ed Frawley and Cesar Millan, I was a positive only trainer and still am with certain dogs because there are soft dogs that can't take harsh corrections. I like to think of myself as a well rounded trainer because I evaluate a dog before the training ever begins and use a training method that will work for that particular dog.

(Emph. added by me btw)  I think this is interesting.  I saw it mentioned elsewhere on the forum that a lot people were crossovers to positive training but there seemed to be none from positive training.  You're my first!  Sorry that was OT...... 

I would never let my dogs near Ed Frawley from Leerburg or Cesar Millan; however, I DO incorporate a zero-tolerance policy into what I consider highly motivational training. I'm 17 and excited to have recently weighed in at just over a hundred pounds, so there is no way I would even attempt to physically control a Rottweiler that could squash me by accident! I find the concept of making a dog fear bodily harm, even death, from his own beloved handler truly nauseating. I don't like CM's way of controlling a dog through being "dominant". Don't get me wrong - it works well for converting a problem dog into a properly controlled pet, and I think what he does is great, but it's just not my style and doesn't seem to be a good basis for competitive and other activities. I prefer to be a gentle and absolute leader who enforces a stable team structure and whom dogs respond to primarily out of trust and enjoyment of teamwork.

Positive reinforcement is wonderful, but I believe that there are times when a dog should be corrected with a quiet "shame" (voice is disappointed and firm but not angry), accompanied by a clear physical correction. The dog should feel as though you always want to avoid him being corrected, which you should. I sometimes foster a dog that never needs a physical correction, but most are physically corrected 1-10 times within the first week or two...and never again (except by voice and immediate deprivation of resources such as petting or playtime). I avoid corrections by setting the dog up for success and making training super enjoyable. By the time I start proofing the dog, it usually has already been happily performing off-lead drills with a 100% success rate. I then control the proofing session by setting the dog up for its first failure due to extreme distraction so that the dog learns that nothing is truly enticing unless endorsed by me. I never have more than one failure (correction) in a training session in the beginning.

I do believe that proofing is VERY useful. You can get to a high level with just the learning phase and never need physical corrections (which I've done although I've never done it without vocal corrections), but I prefer to have a dog yelp once or twice and be able to run around off lead (in an area where everyone knows him and doesn't mind, including the police) have a rock solid recall, and otherwise be 100% reliable than to be 99% reliable and get hit by a car or knock over a kid. In addition, I know that if my microchipped foster dogs run away or get lost in a hurricane, they will stop at curbs to watch before crossing a road and automatically sit and shake hands for any stranger (I never allow my "pit bull" type dogs to approach a stranger - it must make its manners, training, and friendly nature VERY clear by sitting and extending its right paw with a wagging tail and happy expression).

Just to mention, Mr. Frawley and Cesar Millan are friends and Cesar has spent a lot of time at the Leerburg kennels before he became a celebrity.

 
My understanding is that they have met, but Cesar and Ed are not long time friends.  Cesar has not trained with Ed, and was not educated at Leerburg Kennels.

I always cringe when I hear that rescuers think it's fine to adopt out a seriously aggressive dog to an adult home, or that no dog should be euthanized for biting.

I don't believe in adopting out an aggressive dog, be it people-aggressive, dog-aggressive, squirrel-aggressive, or whatever, although I agree that a lot of other rescuers unfortunately consider dog-on-dog aggression somewhat acceptable. But I have no problems adopting out a previously aggressive dog that has been properly rehabilitated during foster care since the dog's past is only important if indicative of the dog's future behaviour. An example is the devoted dog that was encouraged to be aggressive by an abusive owner but, once shown how to behave properly (which can be difficult for a lot of people), absolutely loves playing gently and snuggling with other dogs, kids, cats, etc. and is ready to pass its CGC, therapy dog tests, etc. with flying colours. I'm adamant that ANY medically/physically normal dog can be rehabilitated if given proper handling and truly unconditional love.

We've never ever adopted out an aggressive dog or had one euthanised. The one dog that was still vicious after a month of foster care was adopted by my own family (which is within the rescue's policy since we are active fosters who have no problems dealing with aggressive dogs), has been with us for over a year, and now adores kids, is an amazing nursing home therapy dog, and is otherwise a wonderful member of society that contributes far more than most people do. She's currently working on freestyle and will possibly begin SAR soon...

I like to research training techniques from every trainer I can find and use what has been proven to be effective. I believe some people have misconceptions about Ed Frawley's training methods because they haven't watched the videos and they don't see that Mr. Frawley is NOT "old school" and he even talks about the old, harsh training methods and how he doesn't use them.

 
me too. I've watched some of Ed's videos-- they are excellent, and you actually get to watch him train dogs. He uses a lot of rewards, marker words, and he also delivers a lot of harsh collar corrections. What surprised me the most about his videos though is he tries to "reward" dogs by patting them on the head. The dogs clearly hate it, as most dogs do, and you can see them trying to duck away. The dogs also generally look somewhat unhappy during the training---tails tend to be down, the dog's profile is in high submission, and you don't see that lovely intense focused joy that dogs trained by truly positive methods exhibit.  I just re-watched his ecollar training video, and if my dog acted that scared of me I'd be concerned.
 
I highly recommend everyone watch Leerburg's Building Drive and Focus video. It has a really talented german trainer in it instead of Ed.

"It would be interesting to see if there are police dogs trained without physical tools. I don't mean the drug and bomb sniffers. I mean the dogs that attack and release suspects on command. "
 
Training working dogs is complicated work, but not nearly as brutal as most people think.
 
When you get a working puppy the very first thing you focus on is building drive.  We play hours and hours of chase games, rag games, lots of tugging...there is NEVER EVER any physicall correction used what so ever.  Physical correction actually inhibits drive...the opposite of what we want. 
 
I don't even start working on obedience until the pup is about 8 months old.  The dogs life is about eating, sleeping and building drive.  I have yet to meet a pup that didn't love it. 
 
At 8 months of age we continue building drive, but now start combining obedience ito the routine. I advise all of my students to use strictly positive reinforcement methods with there workers.  We want the dog to enjoy his work at all times at this stage. 
 
Once the dog is off the puppy sleeve and on to a beginner jute sleeve we start increasing the intensity of the training sessions.  We start pressing the dogs nerves when he is on the bite by slowly introducing new sounds, scenarios, and sensations (not all of them are pleasant).  This stage lasts until the dogs is about 2 years old.  All of this bite work is done in prey drive and therefore NO adversive training methods should be used. 
 
When your working dog has fully matured, 2-3 years old (this varies from dog to dog), we start introducing some adversive methods to move him from prey drive to defense/fight drive.  It is time for the dog to learn that he is very powerful and can use his size, strength and confidence to defend his handler. 
 
This is the part of the training that most people have heard about...the part that is not so pretty.  But keep in mind that this has nothing to do with collar corrrections, manners, or even obedience.  The adersives used at this part of training are about building the dogs confidence.  The skill lies in not taking it to far, to the point where the dogs ops for flight.
 
Be careful not to confuse working dog training methods and traditional yank/crank methods.  They are not the same. 

 

MIC! when did you get back? LOL...good to see you, you've been missed.  Or heck maybe you've been back awhile...I am nto often over this way on the forum. In any case...welcome back!

Thank you for the explanation of the stages of development for a working dog. Very informative.
 
 

Hey Gina,
It's good to be back.  I have been working my butt off, and finally have things running smooth to have a little free time.
Later

Welcome back, Mic!

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
I highly recommend everyone watch Leerburg's Building Drive and Focus video. It has a really talented german trainer in it instead of Ed.

That's a good one.  My favorite quote from that one is "You need to sit back, in your garden, smoke a cigar, sip a whiskey and THINK about your dog training."[]

Wow, this thread came back from the dead........[8D]

ORIGINAL: PACleader

"It would be interesting to see if there are police dogs trained without physical tools. I don't mean the drug and bomb sniffers. I mean the dogs that attack and release suspects on command. "

Training working dogs is complicated work, but not nearly as brutal as most people think.

When you get a working puppy the very first thing you focus on is building drive.  We play hours and hours of chase games, rag games, lots of tugging...there is NEVER EVER any physicall correction used what so ever.  Physical correction actually inhibits drive...the opposite of what we want. 

I don't even start working on obedience until the pup is about 8 months old.  The dogs life is about eating, sleeping and building drive.  I have yet to meet a pup that didn't love it. 

At 8 months of age we continue building drive, but now start combining obedience ito the routine. I advise all of my students to use strictly positive reinforcement methods with there workers.  We want the dog to enjoy his work at all times at this stage. 

Once the dog is off the puppy sleeve and on to a beginner jute sleeve we start increasing the intensity of the training sessions.  We start pressing the dogs nerves when he is on the bite by slowly introducing new sounds, scenarios, and sensations (not all of them are pleasant).  This stage lasts until the dogs is about 2 years old.  All of this bite work is done in prey drive and therefore NO adversive training methods should be used. 

When your working dog has fully matured, 2-3 years old (this varies from dog to dog), we start introducing some adversive methods to move him from prey drive to defense/fight drive.  It is time for the dog to learn that he is very powerful and can use his size, strength and confidence to defend his handler. 

This is the part of the training that most people have heard about...the part that is not so pretty.  But keep in mind that this has nothing to do with collar corrrections, manners, or even obedience.  The adersives used at this part of training are about building the dogs confidence.  The skill lies in not taking it to far, to the point where the dogs ops for flight.

Be careful not to confuse working dog training methods and traditional yank/crank methods.  They are not the same. 

Boy, am I glad you're back! []  You don't know how many times I hoped you would pop in with some genuine information about your specialty.