Questions about Leerburg.....

He is old school protection training.  Research Sheila Booth instead.

Research Sheila Booth instead.

 
I see she has her degree in Journalism like me!  She has quite a lengthy resume and accomplishments.  Thanks for the new name to research!

I've spent a lot of time reading Leerburg's free online articles, and find him totally fascinating. What a bizarre mix of +R and truly brutal training methods.

I'm always a little bit leery of people who have spent the majority of their career only working with a certain kind of dog, especially when that kind of dog is not your average family pet. Way different needs going on there.

I too have spent an enormous amount of time reading both Leerburg's articles as well as the +R methods and exercises on clickertraining.com.  I started with Clicker Training with my small dogs and it worked wonderfully for both of them for wanted and unwanted behavior, but they have a much different personality than the adolescent foster that I acquired back in July, who is a huge  Shepherd/Hound or Lab or something??? Mix.  I also thought that a lot of Leerburg's theory makes good sense - such as not correcting a dog until he understands what you asked of him, but it is not good practice to let him think it's ok to ignore you once you are certain he understands.  I also noticed that most of his experience is with German Shepherds and  police dog training, and as Houndlove indicated, that's a whole different focus than training your pet/family dog.

The way I relate to the different methods is that different people with different personalities learn and respond to different methods.  For example, some employees perform much better with praise/reward.  Others need more direction and stricter guidelines and perfom well only because if they don't, they will lose a priviledge or money!  I think dogs are the same way. 

JMHO - I'm just a newbie, and am still trying to sort all this out myself....[8|]

I have not looked at Sheila Booth yet, but I will.

If Mason has a houndy personality, I would not recommend correction-based training. Hounds are really sensitive emotionally, and that trait coupled with their independent streak and pain resistance makes for a dog who simply ignores you and stops wanting to be around you if you're going to be so unpleasant. They are in general very soft dogs.

My main bone of contention with any kind of "make disobedienance not an option" way of training is that dogs are sentient beings and they always have a choice. I'd rather work with that and help them enjoy making the best choices, rather than against it by trying to deny them their free will.

ORIGINAL: houndlove
If Mason has a houndy personality, I would not recommend correction-based training. Hounds are really sensitive emotionally, and that trait coupled with their independent streak and pain resistance makes for a dog who simply ignores you and stops wanting to be around you if you're going to be so unpleasant. They are in general very soft dogs.

Thanks, I should have been on here months ago; I kinda had to wing it when I took him in, and figured that out the hard way with Mason.  His actions or responses I should say, are very confusing to me.  I have never struck him (or any of my animals for that matter), but even as much as pushing him into a sit does not go over well with him - it's not that he gets "soft" like my small dogs do, but he will refuse and become almost combative if  you physically try to put him into a position. 

Thank goodness I already owned a clicker []

He's very affectionate when things are going his way, but if you think you are going to "strong-arm" him into something, you better be ready for his muscles, standing, lunging to begin!
For example, sometimes he is not ready to back to his crate after play time, and I use a yummy treat or a frozen Kong or bone to lure him back in and all is good.  Well, my husband comes home at lunch to let our dogs potty, and the other day when it came time to put Mason back in his crate, Mason did his "independent thinking" thing and stood up on his hind legs and pulled his head out of his collar, bounding around like "NO WAY" - and "If you think you can catch me, go ahead and try!"  Well, DH is not like me, and he took that as a challenge and got really mad at Mason.  He ended up rolling him, which really pissed me off when he told me about it because I don't think it proves anything to the dog and it's not the smartest thing to do. 

I still think there is some good stuff in Leerburg's writing, and probably some dogs or situations that he may have good advice on.  That's where I learned about having him drag the long line when in the house or even in the yard, to give him freedom, but still have "some" control.  So I don't think he's a monster or anything.

Basically, what I've learned about Mason's personality is that I don't think he's a soft dog, but yet he can be sensitive at times and the way he shows that is very different than the way my other dogs express it.  He doesn't like being told what to do, but if he thinks there's a food or game reward, he will comply immediately - as long as he doesn't see something he'd rather get into!  He's just really tough to figure out and I'm just now starting to learn how to communicate with him after 6 months.  And, we just got our first applicant on him this morning - 1st one in 6 months!  Go figure.[8|]

I've read a bit of his stuff. He does have some similar observations as CM as far as pack theory and such, but he takes it to a different place.
 
He reminds me of a Koehler instuctor who has incorporated positive reinforcement into his methods. And his punishments for disobedience cross the line with me.
 
His approach is to make a dog into a 100% reliable "tool". A military dog, so to speak. This is his area of expertise. He is pretty much at the extreme end of where you can take aversives in some of his methods. He is a facinating mix of philosophies.
 
However,  he is a dog "trainer", and Cesar is not.
 
For the average family pet, I'd rather mix positive reinforcement based training with Cesar's social and behavioral philosophies and methods, than go back to a strictly "training" philosophy which relies  on the "reward and punishment" system, sometimes with a little NILIF thrown in, if the dog is lucky.
 
Still, it's good to get the "big" picture in the dog world. I've seen a lot of extreme belief systems, observed the behavior of those who embrace the extremes, and personally prefer a more "balanced" approach which focuses on communication over conditioning.
 
But that's just my personal preference based on my own experiences and results.
 

ORIGINAL: mrv

He is old school protection training.  Research Sheila Booth instead.

Agreed, and add Gottfried Dildei. 
While you're at it, Google on Attila Szkukalek - he didn't train his Border Collies with correction, and look what they can do!
Frawley is cut from the same cloth as Koehler, and the methods they employ are less than dog friendly, to put it mildly.
Steve White, who is partnering with Patricia McConnell on the speaker circuit, is a cop with 32 years experience training K-9's, and he is now on board with use of positive techniques to train dogs that must perform. 

He doesn't like being told what to do, but if he thinks there's a food or game reward, he will comply immediately - as long as he doesn't see something he'd rather get into!

HA! Yes. Just like Marlowe. Marlowe doesn't get all confrontational when you try to force him to do something, he just makes himself in to an Immovable Object. Just try pushing his butt into a sit if he doesn't want to sit, it's like trying to fight gravity! The key for Marlowe is an intermittant and varied reward structure. I've made myself into a slot machine. I don't pay out every time, but when I do, I pay big. So he dutifully keeps pulling that lever and crossing his paws. If I stopped paying out completely, if I stopped being so rewarding and fun to be around, he'd be so out of there. I'm not going to kid myself: he doesn't need me. But I think the rewarding part about being loved by such a dog is that he doesn't have an imparitive to like me, but he does anyway.

Be careful with that chowhound that you use the treats and games as rewards and reinforcers and not bribes. He looks like a smart guy and it's always the smart ones that try to trick you into thinking that you need to bribe them. They give you that look like: "I don't know anything about this 'sit' you speak of, but if you were to, say, dangle a treat over my nose I might be able to job my memory." Just walk away.

He reminds me of a Koehler instuctor who has incorporated positive reinforcement into his methods. And his punishments for disobedience cross the line with me.

 
This is sort of what I got from him.  He got me sucked in to an article by talking about his "old training methods" and how harsh they WERE.  He regrets treating dogs like "that" and now employs +R with all training.  So, I was thinking how bad can this guy be?  He's repenting for crying out loud!  There was much that I could make sense of, also realizing he's training GSDs for protection and expects even his pet dogs to live up to such high standards. 
 
I think I fall in the middle.  While I wouldn't want to have an out of control dog with no training in my house, I also wouldn't want one marching around like a soldier either. 
 
Thanks for all the replies and other names for me to take a look at.  I surely will as I love to read!
  

I dunno, everytime I rad a Frawley article I end up with mixed feelings about it, first you have to dig thru the layer of "if you don't listen to what I say you're plain stupid", and while some of his theory makes sense, I find it that the way he implements it is often not what I understood he meant.

One of the things that make me a little hessitant about him is that he does this as a business, and while there are many trainers out there, the size of thise guy's company, and therefore the risk he's taking, makes him have methods that offer more immediate results in order to keep the business going. At the end of the day, he HAS to sell his DVDs, videos, equipment etc.

One last thing is that his "outspokeness" often gets in the way of what he is trying to say. There is one particular part of his website that CRACKS ME UP, he has a section of "emails that made me laugh", one of them was sent to him by some guy telling him what an outrage the amount of money he charges for his GSD pups is, you should really read it if you have a chance, I can just imagine good ol' Ed popping a blood vessel while he read that.

If I read correctly, he asks for a 900 dollars deposit, half of the puppy price of 1800 dollars.
 
I don't know, you think that is too much?
I have seen breeders that want way more.

ORIGINAL: snownose

If I read correctly, he asks for a 900 dollars deposit, half of the puppy price of 1800 dollars.

I don't know, you think that is too much?
I have seen breeders that want way more.

The hilarious part was that the guy that emailed him said something like "I got mine for $300 from the newspaper and he's bigger, prettier and smarter than any of yours"...or something along those lines.