Questions about Leerburg.....

My aggressive reaction to my dog's aggression made the dog's aggression escalate very quickly.

Working with positive reinforcement instead made changes in that dog's behavior that I thought would be impossible actually pretty fun and easy. The difference in her behavior was dramatic and wholesale. This was a dog that was learning new ways to live--not learning to be afraid to aggress.

 
this was also my experience with an extremely aggressive dog we adopted. The more heavy-handed you got with the dog, the more violent the dog got. NILIF and +R turned the dog around in a matter of weeks.

Ed does some things right, but the things he does wrong are so wrong that they have the potential, especially if tried at home, to cause a whole lot of problems.
 
Our Malinois, Floyd, has the potential for fear agression. It is easy to tell from his behavior that he was obviously trained--he did everything just right from day one and would never, ever dream of counter cruising or eating food that wasn't given to him. He was also poorly socialized and petrified of a beginners group class, the vet, etc. Things like that would guarantee diarrhea. Being a Malinois, there's a point where he will quit running and bite. He has pretty close to perfect recall and has passed the Canine Good Citizen test, but was shedding profusely.
 
Our Malinois/Akita, Wolfgang,  was a wonderfully socialized puppy. He's never had physical corrections, never met a stranger and had a darned fine time in this life. Because DH has the tendency to never set limitations, Wolfgang has some bad habits. He counter cruises, is stubborn, prone to leash pulling, and could use more impulse control. All our fault, but unlikely to change because those things don't really bother us. He's flunked the CGC twice. Wolfgang however, is completely trusting and would never lay a tooth on a person or animal outside of normal, inhibited play. He is a wonderful dog with fosters and will actually prevent fights between two other dogs.
 
Which dog is the problem dog? Fear agression is far, far, more common than dominance aggression.
 
Floyd is manageable and loves us dearly. He is loved dearly.  He's benefitted far more from massage and being around confident dogs than any training. But he's definately a dog that needs to be in a particular type of home.
 
There are millions of dogs euthanized every year. Most of us will never see the "hard eyed" look of a truly mean dog. The amount of rehabilitation to make the dog manageable (not safe) would save the lives of several dogs whose crimes only amount to things like leash pulling or digging.
 
Yes, that's killing the dog. But go to any large city shelter and there are decently trained dogs begging for adoption. Their biggest problem is that they are past two or three years of age. That's truly heartbreaking.
 
And, yes, I'd shoot the dog myself before I'd allow him to be hanged.

Ed does some things right, but the things he does wrong are so wrong that they have the potential, especially if tried at home, to cause a whole lot of problems

You just said in an incredibly eloquent way what I feel about him.

Are you saying you would throw yourself over a cliff if you found your life was worthless?

 
Ask that question to somebody with severe depression.  The answer you're going to get is "Yes."
 
That's the way I look at these dogs who are kept alive for, what I consider to be selfish reasons.  When a dog is stressing every moment of his life, is wanting to bite every second of his existence to escape, and is so mad he is a public menace, it's time to let him go.

I also wanted to add, if I had children 2 of my rescues would not be with me, that is where responsibility kicks in[]

 
What would you do with them?

I think that is ignorant behavior on your part

 
Almost an insult. And it should be noteworthy that the person to whom this was directed did not respond in a similar manner.
 

I always cringe when I hear that rescuers think it's fine to adopt out a seriously aggressive dog to an adult home, or that no dog should be euthanized for biting.  Granted, some dogs are able to be rehabbed, although that isn't the term I use - I use "managed", because that's what it really is.  But, if you do send a dog to an adult home, what's to prevent that family from having a child visit them?  Who says they'll never try to take the dog (who isn't dog aggressive) to a dog park, where children are present.  People sooooo want to believe that their dog will be good now that they've given him a home - he must have bitten because someone abused him, etc.  You are dealing with the general public, and it's a responsibility to try to place dogs into the community who can safely co-exist with humans and other dogs.  fisher had an aggressive dog - why?  Because someone thought it was ok to breed, sell or place her.  So, this kind woman tried everything to save the dog she had grown to love so much, and still ended up heartbroken when nothing "fixed" her.  (FYI, I still shed a tear whenever I hear her name - I remember your struggle) She did a creditable job of developing training skills quickly, and she is not to blame here at all, no way, no how, for the fact that this dog was still a dangerous dog after her "rehab" work.  Anyone who has ever seen a truly dangerous dog respects the fact that it is sometimes wise to cut your losses and lovingly send the dog to a better place. 
Kim understands the kennel crazy desperation in the no kill shelters.  Unless you have seen it yourself, you can't imagine how sad it is...

Thanks Spiritdogs, Kim, and Xeph. It's like those unstable dogs are disabled, if you will. And their take on life and the stresses they have must be pretty incredible. I too, know of Fisher's story and I know how hard she tried.
 
No need for anyone to be flippant about something so serious as real aggression.

No need for anyone to be flippant about something so serious as real aggression.

 
Who's being flippant?
 
If anyone here is ignorant, it would be me. I have a dog who is not genuinely aggressive, just engages in dog behavior. His pack mate is a cat. The aggressive dogs I have dealt with in town are the result of owner negligence, first in not keeping them secured, second, in not caring to train them.
 
FWIW, I think, in most dogs, leash aggression can be managed or cleared away with desensitization training, through whatever combination works. For some dogs, simply treating them at successively closer distances to the stimulus will work. For others, a redirection before escalation and a leading to acceptable behavior that can be rewarded could work. But alas, there may be some dogs who, because of experience, may always be leash aggressive. So the owner would have to adapt the lifestyle to fit. Avoid other dogs, etc. Or PTS. And that could require guidelines at a rescue group to not try and rehab/rehome dogs labeled as "aggressive."
 
But how many dogs get labeled aggressive at the shelter simply because their original owner didn't know what they were doing?

How many dogs,,,, way to many.  The problem is in some dogs the practice of some behaviors becomes so ingrained that adopting them becomes a real risk.  With the number of dogs and cats destroyed in the country on a regular basis due to lack of homes, even garbage behaviors developed through poor ownership and training, even salvagable dogs will end up being put down.  Many rescue and shelter staff are not adequately trained or experienced enough to read behavior in dogs and often dont keep them long enough.  There is rarely adequate financial support to do rehab or training for a period prior to euthanasia. 
 
Just plain sad no matter how you look at it.  Aggressive behaviors regardless of source will be destroyed quicker, they have to be.  Aggressive behavior will rarely respond to rehab effortswithing  the  general time frame of entering  animal control and out of the way because more animals have come in.

That really is the reality of the overpopulation problem.  The fact is that, especially in some parts of the country (what is it about the South that they love dog testicles so much, anyway - sorry if that was flip LOL), the problem is so severe that one of our members from
Florida said that the local shelter in her county euthanizes three times per week.  That's a lot of dogs in the dead bin.  So, rehab isn't an option.  Transporting the dogs to other shelters, in the Northeast, has become a solution of sorts, but no one, us up here included, has any time to rehab dogs that are not already owned.  It just doesn't happen all that often.  Dogs do get mislabeled, and shelter staff are often volunteers (guess who? JQP) so even with a bit more exposure to dog behavior, they aren't qualified often to make the decisions that they are making.  One no kill up here places dogs that I wouldn't give house room to, and the people who adopt them are stunned to find that they didn't get Lassie, and now have one big headache that their kids are now attached to.  More shelters need to participate in their area or regional training conferences.  They need to establish behavioral evaluation programs as soon as they can, and they need to do more outreach about spay/neuter, with graphic dead bin photos if necessary.  Fussy women need to let dogs into the house (it's more of an incentive not to let them roam in the muck and impregnate the dog next door), and men need to realize that the dogs' grapes aren't theirs, and they need to get off their macho high horses and learn to train their dogs properly.  Until that happens, and until people stop buying pet store dogs and dogs from byb's, the situation will, sadly, remain the same - with aggression as a key component.

What would you do with them?

 
I would not have taken the dogs in to begin with, and I seriously doubt that I would be involved in rescue and fostering.
 
Do I make any sense here, or what?

That's the way I look at these dogs who are kept alive for, what I consider to be selfish reasons. When a dog is stressing every moment of his life, is wanting to bite every second of his existence to escape, and is so mad he is a public menace, it's time to let him go.

 
Do you know how many dogs are stressing every day? It's not just the super aggressive dogs.
 
I also mentioned that some dogs cannot be helped.......I have said this many times, how many more times do I have to type this, please, help me out here...ok[]

Wow, I know I'm coming in late here, but this has been quite a heated thread.  snownose, don't worry,  I understand what you're saying. 

About Leerburg/ Ed Frawly, I don't think he's quite the maniac some people have made him out to be.  I ordered his Basic Dog Obedience 4 hours DVD and it's very detailed and full of valuable information not only on training, but living with and caring for your dog as well.  It has a very detailed segment on marker(clicker) training.  Basically, all your basic commands are taught with markers and treats.  Corrections are not introduced until you are 100% sure the dog understands the command and does not obey.  The level of correction depends on the temperment and drive of the dog; anything from a "no" to a firm leash correction, and never correct hard enough as to take the drive out of the dog.

The best thing about this DVD is that he uses real, untrained dogs to demonstrate training as opposed to already perfectly trained dogs.  This makes things much more realistic and gives you a good idea as what to expect with your own training.  I had a Paul Owens DVD and he used only extremely polite, well trained, adult dogs that never failed to hit their marks in his demos.  Dog training must be so easy, right?!

Anyway, I feel that Ed Frawly falls about in the middle of positive/correction in dog training.  He likes to be able to slide either way depending on the dog and circumstance.  Read this to get a better understanding of his dog training philosophy:
[linkhttp://leerburg.com/philosophy.htm]http://leerburg.com/philosophy.htm[/link]



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Coming in late on this too, but I think there's plenty to be learned from most training programs.  I've incorporated a little something mostly from Ed, CM, Woodhouse, McConnell, Dunbar, Clothier and Fishback (sleddog training but has some other applications).  Some of them are quite different, are they not?!  My point is that it really works for me.  Depends on your dog--I have a couple who are VERY hard headed and don't respond to what I call the 'fluffier' methods, 1 who is super soft (a harsh word is all that is needed), and a couple who are rather middle of the road.  Each needs a little different method, they learn just as differently as  people.  Dealing with aggression (which in itself needs to be broken down--what's causing the aggression? Fear? Pain? Desire to dominate?  They're different) is a whole different ballgame than dealing with a 'clean slate' dog like a puppy.  When you're reading the techniques of various trainers, do so with your dog(s) in mind--would it work?  Would it be too much?  Not enough?  Some of the people here would think I was just awful because I've had to have what we call the "Jesus talk" (this does not include hanging or beating of any kind but it does require domination in a CM type fashion) with a couple of mine who thought they were going to try and take over.  That happens a lot in my breed--they know who is in charge but it doesn't stop them from trying.  I call them persistent and foolishly hopeful.  In the end though, the personality of the dog(s) should be the big determining factor in what method you use.