Questions about Leerburg.....

Are you saying you'd trust a trainer who would do that to their dogs in private?!

The fact that it's not obedience training was not even the point, but whatever. Go ahead and hound me about my experience now (since this seems to be the way these threads go), just because I happen to see HANGINGS as an unnecessary, brutal, and abusive method, and would not trust anyone to touch my dogs who would do that to ANY dog.

Are you saying you'd trust a trainer who would do that to their dogs in private?!

The fact that it's not obedience training was not even the point, but whatever. Go ahead and hound me about my experience now (since this seems to be the way these threads go), just because I happen to see HANGINGS as an unnecessary, brutal, and abusive method, and would not trust anyone to touch my dogs who would do that to ANY dog.

 
I don't have to put my dogs in any trainers hands.
 
Nobody is going to hound you about your experince, my point being is, what to do with an aggressive dog that has attacked..........as we all know most dogs get put to sleep, do you agree with that method more?

I read the page, too, including the letters from readers. The harsh corrections of hanging were only for the most aggressive dogs that will essentially bite anything that moves, including the handler. The result of the training is that it would not attack the handler. And notice, it is not the handler that does the hanging, but an assistant, somewhat out of sight.
 
OTOH, CM does not hang dogs. The few instances on a show where he is accused of hanging a dog is a matter of the dog hanging itself and CM trying to keep it and others out of harm's way. CM may be strong but he is short. He is simply not tall enough to lift a 90 GSD off the ground. I find CM to be the kinder, gentler version of physical training.
 
Different types of work require different types of training. It is not unusual to train controlled bite in a police dog with a remote collar. Sometimes, you might have to stim them high for a second if they are struggling with a difficult subject who has their adrenalin flowing but that stim will stop the bite and is stopped as soon as they release.
 
Frawley has several levels of correction. CM uses dog behavior. Parts of both may be useful at certain times with certain dogs in achieving a behavioral change. But, either one is incomplete without +R. That is, I have used a correction before, even a mild one, such as "no" and lead to good behavior with, perhaps, a recall which is reward with a treat. Provide the boundary and lead the way to the good stuff.
 
Not all dogs need such stern discipline. Even in this article, Frawley is not advocating starting out with the harshest. In fact, his collar correction is to be even and firm, not jerky, which could lead to a bite. And he's not really advocating that anyone go do the harshest level but he included it for those who just have to know.

Honestly, I think it would depend on the dog, but that PTS should be a last resort, not something I'd just jump to. The hanging-from-tree thing seems awfully abusive, and it seems to me that it could possibly just suppress the aggression... to me that seems even more dangerous... I haven't had a handler-aggressive dog (yet) but I have had dog-aggressive dogs and haven't had to resort to stringing the dog up by its neck to get results...

Either way, I have read a few things on that site that are true, but a lot of things that are BS, and on the FAQ section, some stuff almost makes no sense, due to grammatical errors and... weird logic. I would just not recommend him to anyone looking for obedience training, after stuff like I have read, and especially new dog owners. >X.x;<

I would have to say that, given a choice, I'd recommend Cesar over this guy. As far as brutality goes, Cesar PALES in comparison...

Anyway, I'll shut up now... carry on... >-.-;<

Thanks for editing your reply so that mine makes no sense. >9.9<

 
I was editing while you were posting. I was originally talking regular training by Ed not getting into the extreme.

Honestly, I think it would depend on the dog, but that PTS should be a last resort, not something I'd just jump to. The hanging-from-tree thing seems awfully abusive, and it seems to me that it could possibly just suppress the aggression... to me that seems even more dangerous... I haven't had a handler-aggressive dog (yet) but I have had dog-aggressive dogs and haven't had to resort to stringing the dog up by its neck to get results...

 
There is a big difference between dog aggressive dogs and handler aggressive dogs......trust me[]
 
To me putting a dog to sleep is the last resort, if the dog can be helped, then perhaps not so savory methods could be used to save the dog's life.....JMO.

but a lot of things that are BS

But that is an opinion based on limited knowledge. It`s subjective. I would never suggest how to train a hunting dog, it`s beyond my experience.
Let me ask you, I see you work in the schools. How do you feel about the unruly kids these days? Most seem to be products of the "time out" generation. My boys behaved regardless as to their age or where we were. They knew there were consequences to improper behavior. They are all grown up, and are well adjusted and I promise when you`re out dining the kids at the next table running around and screaming in the restaurant won`t be my Grandchildren.

This will explain Ed`s theory on corrections.
[linkhttp://leerburg.com/corrections.htm]http://leerburg.com/corrections.htm[/link]

Actually, no, it was some stuff he said about basic things that I do know about, so sure, it could have still been my opinion, but it wasn't based on "limited knowledge." But I'm not even going to go into it, because I already said I'd shut up. If I'd known my very brief, tiny comment was going to cause so much negativity, I would not have posted.

*Goes to walk dogs in 9 degree weather, rather than debate about it anymore*

If I'd known my very brief, tiny comment was going to cause so much negativity, I would not have posted.

 
I'm believin' that ... no, really, I am.[]

I assure you it is not necessary to physically discipline a child to get one who is well behaved.  In fact, physical approaches to any number of situations will merely escalate the problems. 
 
The reality is:  One trial learning can and does occur.  This is when an aversive is so strong the organism avoids the behavior that proceeded the aversive after only one occassion.  So it is likely the strategies under consideration will likely suppress certain behaviors. 
 
Punishment surpresses behavior.  It suppresses behavior in the situation in which it occurs and does not typically transfer to other indivduals or situations well.  Another reality, if you have a hard, aggressive dog without an off switch, the applications for that dog are limited.  And typical patrol work for a police department is not one of those options. 
 
I am far more impressed with someone who uses their brain over their brawn.

How do you feel about the unruly kids these days? Most seem to be products of the "time out" generation. My boys behaved regardless as to their age or where we were

 
It sounds like they were raised the way I was raised. Corrections for wrong behaviors and rewards for good behaviors, mostly. My mother could be rewarding in her own way and we did have lots of good times together. My grandparents promised rewards and then didn't deliver. My mother delivered swift discpline and then we go on with the rest of the day. My grandmother once spent 6.5 hours, 6:00 p.m. until 12:30 a.m., telling me at 13 how I could one day aspire to be the dirt beneath a worm because we had not bought a b-day present for our step-grandfather, which I should have been able to manage in spite of being in school for 8 hours a day, having no job, and living in govt. assisted apartments. My grandparents are still alive and I don't talk to them. My mother passed away in 1987 and I would talk to her today, if it were possible.
 
I don't hit Shadow but I will provide him boundaries, when necessary. Sometimes, it's ownership of a spot. In the past, it was a scruff. Other times, I just graze the side of him with my knee because I'm taking first position. But I will lead him to rewardable behavior. More and more, I can use just +R, as I set boundaries before. And what I did with him was less forceful than momma dog. I firmly believe that one size does not fit all. You must match your response to the situation.
 
Most of us have never encountered an everything-aggressive dog. And for most of us, pts would be better for the dog, as it would inevitably get in to trouble and the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) would make that decision for us. But some dogs, while not everything-aggressive, do need stronger guidelines, especially if they have a type of work that can be confusing, such as K-9 work. "You want me to bite? Now, you don't want me to bite?"
 
It would be interesting to see if there are police dogs trained without physical tools. I don't mean the drug and bomb sniffers. I mean the dogs that attack and release suspects on command.
 

Shelia Booth is a protection sport competitor using positive methods.

There are an increasing number of people training with more emphasis on positive reinforcement on police departments, but they don't talk about it much.  Goes to show how much of a stigma it is to be considered less than macho...  But, on the department where Steve White trains, they have not lost a man or a dog yet. []
This is where I always like to throw in Karen Pryor's comment - "Remember, it's just behavior".  If you can train "quiet" you can train "speak", and if you can train "bite" you can train "out".
Granted, police K-9's must also work when the bad guy is doing his best to kill him, so he has to be used to some physical assault not causing him to let go, but we are talking about a service animal, not a pet.  There is never any reason to use K-9 tactics, or Leerburg's methods, or Koehler's methods, on a pet, even one that will compete in Schutzhund.  If Shirley Booth and Gottfried Dildei can win without doing so, others can, too.

Funny, I notice that the people who were brought up feeling the "strap" are often the ones who cross the line with their own kids, and still don't get the behavior they want.  They are often underachievers, abusers, and molesters as well as model citizens, so what's your point?
The real key is not how much abuse anyone's parents doled out to force you to behave, it's whether they commanded the kind of respect that made you not want to disappoint them without having to resort to hitting.

Oh, and Rog - I've owned dogs other than "pocket puppies", and I think Leerburg is crap, too.  Koehler had lots of "experience" at being brutal, too, but that didn't make it right.  Quite a few dogs died at the ends of their choke chains because of that dude whether he was on the other end of each lead or not.  [:'(]  Before you sneer at Booth, White and Dildei, read or watch.

ORIGINAL: snownose

Well, let's re-phrase this, perhaps if one were to train a protection dog, or had a very stubborn dog that did not respond to +R training.[]

What if you had a protection dog that did not respond to brutality?
Aren't we on the same merry-go-round again?  Next thing you know, there'll be a separate section for Leerburg fans...[:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(]

Anne, you need to learn how to relax....[]
 
Nobody advocates hanging a dog for any reason........but, what if it is the last , and I mean the very last avenue before the dog gets put down?
 
We all know many dogs don't have a chance once they have reached a certain aggression level, and history tells us what happens to these dogs.........right?