Questions about Leerburg.....

ALright lets talk about learning...... the brain needs to be functioning to learn  Agreed?   Hanging restricts blood flow and oxygenation of the brain goes down.  Agreed?  In a state of oxygen deprevation the brain is no longer efficient at learning.  Agreed?  Ok what is the benefit to a training technique that shuts down the efficiency of the brain..... Where is the sense in that?
 
I am not talking about a leash correction or management system,  I am talking about hanging a dog..... If that is the last resort,,,scary. 

I am talking about hanging a dog..... If that is the last resort,,,scary

 
 
 
And, I am talking about putting a dog to sleep......scary.....
 
I just wanted to mention that certain members on this board have agreed with putting a dog to sleep, because, the animal was dangerous to humans........don't want to mention any names here.........

ok  this is worthless enterprise.... Physical domination and aggression from one species is tolerated.  And yes, I have suggested euthanasia for some animals.  And I would not have considered such a program for rehab either; because I dont think rehabilitation would occur.

Before you sneer at Booth, White and Dildei, read or watch.

 
I don`t sneer. I`ve found that a balance of the 2 forms of training works for me.Like my kids my dogs are well adjusted. They`ve been in the retail store at dog.com and I use them to reach some of the troubled youth that I volunteer with. 

ORIGINAL: ron2

If I'd known my very brief, tiny comment was going to cause so much negativity, I would not have posted.

I'm believin' that ... no, really, I am.[]

I guess Ron has discovered my secret - I am a masochist in disguise... Why else would I purposefully want to get my head bitten off?

I guess Ron has discovered my secret - I am a masochist in disguise... Why else would I purposefully want to get my head bitten off?

 
At least you have the sense of humor to appreciate my twisted sense of humor.
 

Not to go OT, but....Ron?  Isn't it like not even 5AM where you are?

Next thing you know, there'll be a separate section for Leerburg fans...

 
I'll see what I can do ...[]

Gee, snownose, are you volunteering to take on all the rehabbing of dangerous dogs that I see?  PM me your address so I can refer them all to you, since you seem to be saying that none of them should be euthanized.  Please do keep in mind that some of them will increase your homeowner's insurance, if you can even get any.  And, some have inflicted multiple bites on children, requiring lots of stitches, some in the face.  So, if you have kids, you may want to keep them separated 24/7.  But, that's easy, right?  I'm sure the parents of those kids will be glad to know that you are willing to take their dogs.   Can I contact all my local rescue organizations, too?  You know - the ones with too few foster volunteers, too many dogs?  I'm sure they will be glad that they no longer have to euthanize the really aggressive ones, but can send them to you instead.  And the kill shelters will be thrilled.  Think of how you will be saving all those employees from "compassion fatigue"!  You are truly an angel, and I know that, using CM's TV techniques, you will successfully rehab them all.  When do we get started????? 

and I know that, using CM's TV techniques, you will successfully rehab them all. When do we get started?????

 
Anne, come on, temper check....that was uncalled for.
 
IMO, every avenue should be tried before putting a dog to sleep, but in reality I know that is hard to achieve.......remember, I rescue.....[]
 
We were talking about Frawley hanging dogs to get rid of aggression, so we have the cruel method of "Hanging", versus the "Needle"....you pick.

Ok question of another type.  How many aggressive rescue dogs will end up at Leerburg?  Who will pay the bill?  How many dogs will really be saved?
 
If punishment is so good to stop behavior in a potentially dangerous animal,  how come some trained elephants go crazy and take off looking to punish human beings?

If punishment is so good to stop behavior in a potentially dangerous animal, how come some trained elephants go crazy and take off looking to punish human beings?

 
You used the word " Some", I know all cannot be helped........But, I still think some aggressive dogs can be helped. I don't advocate people with children owning dogs of that nature, that is understood.

But, children exist in the world.  How will you isolate the dog from any and all children?  They are EVERYWHERE and many are not horribly well behaved or respectful.

The same way I do it now, I don't have children come around, because I take in rescues, and I don't need the headache. If we go places my dogs are alway under supervision, and always in the car, crated or on a leash.
 
Little sidenote, I am not a big fan of kids[]

Ok lets try and find some common ground.  Aggression happens and it puts people and dogs at risk.  Many aggression problems are the part of poor training and management on the part of people.    Many aggression problems could be addressed through management and training.  It is often worth the time and expenditure to work on rehabilitation.  So far, I think that is a fair representation of the two side presented.

The differences:  Punishment and aversives as a method to stop behavior   OR differential reinforcement techniques to establish a behavior with a higher probability of occurance.

The issues I have with punishment based strategies.

One of the methods under discussion involve the need for considerable physical strength.  Problem associated with such training involves the fact punishment based training is more limited with respect to generalization.  And if the behavior occurs again in a new location, can the individuals replicate the training method efficiently and get control.  That question is up for grabs.

Another issue, punishment based training has been linked with suppression of escalation behaviors, so it appears more unexpectedly, (example the case of elephants)
Punishment, although quick with initial results, is not a long term effective method for dealing with any training of behavior.

Aggressive dogs need to be dealt with no question, but I do not think that aversives of the nature of hanging a dog are effective long term:  cuts down on oxygen to the brain (no learning going on here);  if the dog is placed and the owners are not adequately prepared, the problem behavior probability goes up.  More effective approaches would involve specific training of replacement behaviors, management of the situation and practice in multiple environments to promote generalization.  All those things need to occur to teach new behaviors.

I do  believe that just because we can doesn't mean we should.