How "hands-off" can you be in training?

I don't think there is any question whether or not molding, or physically making the dog do as you like, works. Of course it can. And of course not all molding is cruel! I know some trainers who do use molding and are very gentle with their hands. The molding idea runs along a continuum from quite gentle to yes, downright abusive.
 
However, my part in deciding to never use molding comes from the fact that I don't have to. I have learned, through experience, that any sort of molding is in 99% of cases (I would say 100%, but nothing is 100%, even though to date I never train anything with molding), un-needed. And I push MYSELF in seeing just how much and how far I can go with this, and I continually am surprising myself every day I train.
 
My other issue with molding is the potential loss of benefit to the dog. It is known anecdotally, and there is I think (I don't have the link now, I'll look for it) research indicating the real benefits clicker training has, and that not only does it affect a different part of the brain than "normal" learning, but it also affects a particular spot in memory in the brain, truly affecting the dog's ability to learn, and affecting the dog's ability to think about it's own actions.
 
I LOVE the fact that my dogs think. When training something new (especially complex things), you can really see the wheels turning in their minds, as they try to work the clicker to see what works. That is actually how I've taught some of my funnest (and funniest!, like Leap Frog...LOL) behaviours. I LOVE the fact that they aren't just waiting for me to show them what to do, but they are actively engaged in the learning process. I also love the fact that at the end of a very successful training session, they are almost as mentally satisfied as if they just came back from a 1/2 hour romp through the woods, as it's just such great mental stimulation (something great to use for rainy weather too!).
 
I guess I just really enjoy the thought of my dog going through the motions because I'm showing it what to do nearly as much as I love the thought of them being engaged and active in their own learning. I have seen SO many dogs that lose the ability to try new behaviours, because they simply "learn" to expect human to show dog what to do. And that saddens me. The only downfall of course to a thinking dog is the real-life thinking they also develop because of that (I've had some VERY smart dogs do some hilarious, albeit unwanted things because they've learned to try different things until they get what they are after, I can't ever remember having a dog that was molding-trained that did those things).
 
So, while it's not a matter of "does it work", for me it is a big matter of "What is more beneficial, and what will provide the best in learning and fun for my dog".
 
Kim MacMillan

ORIGINAL: snownose

P.S. Snownose, I thought your comment to Ratsicles was mean.

If it came across mean, I apologize.

I felt ratsicles was giving conflicting information.
In addition I felt that her using Cesar's philosophies fell into the disclaimer croud, I think I ointed that out by stating the obvious, Cesar's show is for dogs BEYOND regular training.

The great majority of dogs, including the ones on Cesar's show, are most decidedly *not* beyond "regular" training.  The sad fact is that most dog's don't get adequate training, nor do they get much in the way of understanding from the majority of humans.
Even dogs with significant behavior issues can be successfully retrained with the right instruction, and a dedicated handler.  Most humans prefer the quick fix, which really doesn't even exist.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Most humans prefer the quick fix, which really doesn't even exist.

I dont think that anybody here thinks there is a quick fix with dogs including any TV show on any network, dogs are not appliances where you just fix them one day and you dont have to touch them in the future, like i've always said, those are just misunderstandings the people have when they see "initial results right away" which are not the same as a "quick fix"

The great majority of dogs, including the ones on Cesar's show, are most decidedly *not* beyond "regular" training. The sad fact is that most dog's don't get adequate training, nor do they get much in the way of understanding from the majority of humans.
Even dogs with significant behavior issues can be successfully retrained with the right instruction, and a dedicated handler. Most humans prefer the quick fix, which really doesn't even exist.

Usually, when Cesar shows up at a dog owner's doorstep, the owner usually says" I have tried everything, and I don't know what to do"

So, let me rephrase, his show is for dogs out of hand and some are beyond normal training.

That ought to put some people here at ease....eh?
 
Some posters on here have made comments about copying and pasting out of Cesar's book, on the other hand, I could swear some +R fans sound just like parts of a book....hmmm.
Copying and pasting, or just copying perhaps?

Usually, when Cesar shows up at a dog owner's doorstep, the owner usually says" I have tried everything, and I don't know what to do"

ORIGINAL: snownose

Well, yes, that's true, most owners do say that. But in reality, they have not tried everything. What they mean is that they've probably tried the one or two suggestions given to them, and when they didn't work (due to whatever reason, there could be many), they equate that to "trying everything", when in fact there is a world of things they could still try before resulting to such methods.
 
I've heard people so many times saying "I've tried everything", and upon asking one or two questions determine there are easily three or four things they haven't tried, because they just didn't know.
 
On another note, I must ask, because while I've only been a member for a short time, I see it's becoming a thread in a lot of cases.
 
Is it not at all possible to discuss training issues without resorting to Cesar Millan? It seems to me that in both ways (the anti-Cesar and the for-Cesar) crops up in almost every discussion. Is it really needed? Can we just discuss training methods, and not trainERS?
 
Not that I mind a good conversation or discussion about trainers and their television shows, I do, and there are about two dozen posts devoted to him now, but perhaps we should get back to the issue at hand about what the author asked, because I don't really think he/she asked about Cesar. []

Oh gosh, how did that turn out like that? I really need to learn my board manners here yet. [:@]
 
The bottom "quote" is actually my writing.
 
Kim

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

Oh gosh, how did that turn out like that? I really need to learn my board manners here yet. [:@]

The bottom "quote" is actually my writing.

Kim

I do that all the time.  Just go back to your post and 'edit' (top of post right side) and delete bracket quotes before and after your writings.  I usually write posts in Word, do spellcheck, and then copy.  Larger canvas than the little window provided, plus if you take too long in writing-it times out and you loose your writing.

Oh gosh, how did that turn out like that? I really need to learn my board manners here yet.

The bottom "quote" is actually my writing.

 
Just highlight and copy the part you want to quote, then paste it in your reply, it should already be as a quote, then after that you can reply.....[]

Well, yes, that's true, most owners do say that. But in reality, they have not tried everything. What they mean is that they've probably tried the one or two suggestions given to them, and when they didn't work (due to whatever reason, there could be many), they equate that to "trying everything", when in fact there is a world of things they could still try before resulting to such methods.

 
You're assuming facts not in evidence. One recent episode I saw, the owner had been to three trainers.
 
CM seems to be important here, in more ways than one.

ORIGINAL: ron2

Well, yes, that's true, most owners do say that. But in reality, they have not tried everything. What they mean is that they've probably tried the one or two suggestions given to them, and when they didn't work (due to whatever reason, there could be many), they equate that to "trying everything", when in fact there is a world of things they could still try before resulting to such methods.

You're assuming facts not in evidence. One recent episode I saw, the owner had been to three trainers.

CM seems to be important here, in more ways than one.

Aren't you guys in the wrong section????  There's already a place on this forum where you can applaud the man all you want.  I think it was put there so that every other thread in the training section would not degenerate into an argument between the pro and anti CM factions.  But, here you all are again....so, I will stay OT by saying that dogs can be satisfactorily trained, and their behavior modified, by using very little, if any, hands on techniques.  Those of you who want to push, pull, prod, and correct, and turn everything into a sssst fest go have a nice day. [:'(]

Thank you, Anne! Guys, this thread has nothing to do with CM whatsoever. Ratsicles simply mentioned the name in passing and look what happens. If you want to discuss CM in relation to this thread, even, please start a new one in the appropriate CM section. It's annoying to have your thread hijacked by something that's rather off topic.

This discussion has made me feel a lot better about this approach I want to take. Penny learnt some things from moulding when she was a puppy, but I feel like she never really understood it very well, and for the most part still relies largely on a physical reminder to what she needs to do. I'm trying to phase out those physical signals and am slowly getting there. She'll now sit about 30% of the time without me tapping her butt. It doesn't sound that great, which is why I don't want to use moulding again. Before I started working on her, the only time she'd sit on command without a physical tap or even more was when she wanted her dinner or a treat. I also managed to wean her off physical reminders for lie down just with practice. She now goes down usually with a hand signal.

She's a very obedient dog, in my estimation, but I don't think physically positioning her during training did her any favours, and it only seems to have taught her to wait until I give her a physical signal. It's a pain to have to bend down and put my little dog into position, especially now that I know from teaching her other things that she picks things up very quickly in most circumstances. It's like I picked the one way to teach her that makes little sense to her! I've recently taught her "over here" during walks, to mean she should walk on the other side of me. I used finger clicking to coax her over and a little bit of gentle pressure on the lead to begin with because that's what she's used to. She's picked it up fine and doesn't need a physical signal, which suggests to me that the whole physically positioning thing has only ever confused her. She's nearly 11, but I've been phasing out physical manipulation and I feel good about phasing them out. My dog is happier and pays closer attention to me, and she's more responsive. And I feel better about our relationship as well. Just goes to show that it's never too late to change your ways with a dog. []

Tried everything very often means tried a variety of different suggestions for about 5 minutes and likely gave up during the extinction burst and moved on to something else.
 
 

Those of you who want to push, pull, prod, and correct, and turn everything into a sssst fest go have a nice day.

This is so typical, and does NOT surprise me in the least[8|]

I wasn't trying to make it a CM fest. That's why my reply was so short. I simply thought the post assumed facts not in evidence.
 
But I see some things clearly now. Kim can spend a longish post describing just how little an opinion or analogy of mine means, but I can't express an opinion on a statement of hers. That's fair?
 
I'll prorbably catch heat for this reply, though everyone else here, including you has risen to defend their opinion and been lauded for it. That's fair?
 
That you can express a dissenting opinion or even a post of clarification in that "other" section and that's okay but I can't post a single clarification myself, here. That's fair?
 
I, for one, would like to see this thread concentrate on hands-off.
 
And I understand the rules of the game better. Once I understand the rules, whether I think they are fair or not, I know better how to play the game.
[sm=peace.gif]

Thanks for the advice everyone on the posts! My deepest apologies if it looked as though I was discussing Cesar, just the opposite in fact, I'm trying to STOP talking about the man as I haven't been on a post yet I don't think that hasn't contained his name! []
 
Kim
 
P.S. To answer your question, I am basing my "assumption" on experience, and I would have to question the "trainers" the dog and owner went to if they went to three trainers and got nowehere with their dog. But I won't address that here because it isn't the point of the post. If you like I'd be happy to give you my explanation in private.