How "hands-off" can you be in training?

I think absolutely you can train using all positive methods.  I used them with Willow and also used the "make like a tree" method you described for walking and it worked beautifully. 

Since I have a similar breed I just wanted to mention you might be a little surprised at just how unmotivated by pretty much anything they can be.  I'm always saying things that would just thrill other dogs Willow ignores.  So, that can slow things down a bit and get a little annoying.  But, it can still be done and I did do it. 

Just my opinion, but if I was to get an Akita or another chow or any other similar breed I would also start NILIF right away, as soon as the puppy knew at least one command to do it with.  Akitas can be very different in temperment if they don't learn how to act from the beginning.  They also change temperment as they get older.  I knew TWO that were incredible puppies but at a certain age I couldn't be around them anymore.  And, that was from lack a proper training and leadership. 

There is one on a dog walk route I use and he is an incredibly well behaved dog.  He's calm, he stays right by their side, if the gate is left open he doesn't leave the yard.  BUT, they are with him most of the time and he was extensively trained.  I'd still not just walk in on him but as you can see, they can be great given the right owner.  They tend to be one owner type dogs like my chow.  So, you might want to take that into consideration if you plan on children, having other dogs around, are extremely social, etc.

I'd definately read up on the breed and learn as much as you can.  They get to be big, powerful dogs. 

You can train absolutely anything and everything you wish to train, without EVER putting your hand on a dog. I'm a HUGE fan of both capturing and shaping (although I will and have used luring on occasion if I felt it was easier...the more tools you know how to use, the better). In actual "training" sessions, I NEVER put my hands on a dog to train. I want my dogs to use their brains, to think and learn about what they should be doing, rather than me doing it for them, as it is my (and many other's) view that molding (making the dog go into the position of choice) does not allow the dog to use it's brain much at all, whereas shaping or capturing have the dog in a thinking game, and a thinking dog is a dog that's going to be very well mentally satisfied just after a training session.
 
I have taught sit, down, crawl, without touching the dog. I have taught conformation heeling without touching the dog (I taught it without a leash, only added the leash later on). I have taught agility obstacles without ever touching the dog. I have taught my girl to high five, shake paw, spin, and clean up all her toys and put them in a basket, without ever touching her.
 
However, and this is something that I find people have a problem with, and I know of people who have run into problems with this. Just because I use hands-free training, doesn't mean I never touch the dog! Just the opposite in fact. To "train" the actual behaviours I want I do not use any guidance of hands, however, once the behaviour is known and we are proofing it, I WILL use my hands to touch the dog, scratch her chin, rub her ears, etc.
 
Don't mistake "hands-free" training with "I'll never touch the dog in training", they aren't the same thing. I always recommend people touch their dog, as that is a great way to acclimate dogs to touch, and have your dog comfortable being touched. I know a few clicker trainers who did "hands-free" training, that went great, but in the long run they ended up not handling the dog's body at all, and the dog became quite fearful of being touched/handled.
 
All dogs should be comfortable being handled (massaged, rubbed down, paws lifted up, look in ears, between toes, eyes, mouth, anal area, etc). And in fact you can use a clicker or marker word to make a game out of it (Show me your left paw. Your right paw. Your back paw. Other paw!....."Mommy's going to check your MOUTH now"). What I mean is, don't "not touch" your dog in training. 
 
Do that make sense?
You can train all the behaviours you want without USING touch/molding as a training aid, but you SHOULD always make a point to touch your dog as a rule just because, it's better for the dog and associations in the long run.
 
Kim MacMillan

I agree with Willowchow.  I had a neighbor with the akita/mix.  They were terrible owners but the dog was very smart and protective of their home .  It didn't turn out well for the dog  I am pretty sure it was due to the horrid owners...Bit the grandmother and had to be pts.  I think it was sad because the dog was the smartest one in that bunch.  He was pretty too.,
 
What do you mean by hands off training?  If you mean not wacking the dog, I certainly agree with hands off.   []
 
 

 I'm very opposed to the "physically position" the dog method of training. Most dogs don't learn anything from it except to be passive and let themselves be pushed/prodded/dragged into place. Some dogs get upset about it and may bite. If the dog "needs help", some luring or going back several steps are usually much more effective. If your dog doesn't sit or come on command, some people suggest you should "enforce" the command by physically making the dog sit or dragging the dog to you with the leash-- but since the dog didn't obey the command and instead made you do all the work, what exactly are you "enforcing"? 

What do you mean by hands off training? If you mean not wacking the dog, I certainly agree with hands off.

 
Bingo[]

Lol Snownose!  Punishing with physical anger is against the grain here too.
 
Mudpuppy said:

some people suggest you should "enforce" the command by physically making the dog sit or dragging the dog to you with the leash-- but since the dog didn't obey the command and instead made you do all the work, what exactly are you "enforcing"?

 
This is nicely said.  And I think that is what Corvus probably means to do. 
 
I like the idea of NILF.  I am pretty sure that is a good start with most any dog.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

 I'm very opposed to the "physically position" the dog method of training. Most dogs don't learn anything from it except to be passive and let themselves be pushed/prodded/dragged into place. Some dogs get upset about it and may bite. If the dog "needs help", some luring or going back several steps are usually much more effective. If your dog doesn't sit or come on command, some people suggest you should "enforce" the command by physically making the dog sit or dragging the dog to you with the leash-- but since the dog didn't obey the command and instead made you do all the work, what exactly are you "enforcing"? 

 
I think your objection has to do with the degree of “physically position”, the force used.  I don#%92t see anything wrong with touching or positioning a dog.   In obedience class, way back when, our exercise was without using voice commands to heel, stop, and upon stopping the dog should sit.  To work on the sit command we were to voice sit and if there was no response, we were to pet the dog from his rear down his backleg without pressure.  This put the dog in a sit position.  Praise or treats was given as a reward.   Now for the down command, the instructor had us put our dogs in a sit position and then give the command.  If no response, we were instructed to pop the front legs forward.  I said no to that because GD are deep chested and could be hurt, plus I would need a lot of strength and also there was a risk of injury to myself.  I voice down and then did treat to nose to ground.  But I like the method described in another thread of luring the dog to go under your knee.  Sound like more of a game.  I also said no to leash pops as corrections except in heeling and for that it was more like self correction.
 
I am not a trainer.  I foster dogs and I find that each dog is different and responds differently.   I work with what I got to teach the dog basic obedience.  Some do well with hands-free and others need the gentle nudge.  I usually try and find a motivator and then work from there.  A dog that is treat driven is easy to work with.  A dog that likes to be petted or responds to praise is also easy to work with.  If I find the dog#%92s spot then the dog is very responsive.
 

Re-read Kim MacMillan's post, which is brilliant, and go sign up for a clicker class.  Also, with this breed, begin the "puppy rule of twelve" right away, even if you must carry him a lot of the time till he has his shots. This is a breed which, if you don't do the early socialization before the age of 12 weeks, may decide that there are some things he will never put up with.  I have one student, in particular, who took my advice about a lot of this, and now has a three year old neutered male that still comes to play group!  For a normally dog-aggressive breed, this is quite an accomplishment.  This dude still lets obnoxious Lab puppies crap on him now and then, too, with nary a stare.
The woman I refer to never used physical manipulation or punishment on this dog, and she weighs about 90 pounds soaking wet.  Her hubby is tall (very tall) and slim, but the dog pays more attention to his mom, since she did most of the training.  He's a peach of a dog and I am very proud to have had some impact on that!!! []

There are times when Shadow is excited and doesn't sit on the first command. I will apply gentle pressure to his rump and repeat the command. I guess I'm enforcing. He doesn't resent it, he's distracted. After that, he will listen better. Sometimes, I wouldn't have the time to go to a class. Today, for example. I'm working on a project in Lewisville. For those of you who now the metroplex area, I get to drive S.H 121 from McKinney to Lewisville and back. On top of that, I had to go to the company office in Sherman to turn in paperwork, such as my time sheet and receipts from suppliers, etc. Then, stop by DW's work to get something perishable from her. So, I didn't get home until 5:30. And I've had to work later than that, at other times.
 
But I do have patience and a fresh bag of treats and use the distractions of the neighbors and/or their pets to work on it.
 
Go ahead, give me my spanking.
 
Other times, he does just fine.

Kim, I had thought of the potential problem of not touching the dog enough and should have mentioned my thoughts on that in the original post. With any dog, let alone an akita, I like to have them comfortable with pretty much any physical touch as long as it doesn't hurt them. With my current dog, Penny, I often pull her along slippery floors, or push her on them, or gently roll her over when she's lying down, or pull her head into my lap. All of these things sound kinda mean, but I never pushed her beyond what she would take and it always ended with a belly rub, which is about her most favourite thing in the world. Anyway, she now trusts me so much that I can do just about any silly thing to her, poking and prodding her and pulling and pushing her, and she puts up with it. I decided I liked that she was so relaxed with me touching her anywhere and think I will do the same things with my akita puppy when he comes. I think it's especially important with a dog that's going to be very large and independently minded.

Mudpuppy, the biggest reason why I don't want to physically position my new dog is that I was taught to do that with Penny and now she hardly ever sits unless I tap her rump. I feel like I taught her to wait until I made that contact before she obeyed the command. It seems silly to me.

So DPU, it's not that I see anything wrong with certain degrees of physical contact during training, just that I want to avoid it all if I can. It suits me, because I'm the kind of person that always does things with a very light touch. I find that it works best for me because if I try to control something more firmly, I tend to be a lot more clumsy.

I was definitely planning to use a clicker to train, which I also forgot to mention in my initial post. [:'(] My akita is going to be getting daily outings while he's in his socialisation period. I've spoken to some breeders and they all say that's the crucial thing to having a confident, balanced akita. That and something like NILF, although I haven't heard that term over here. I've always practiced something like that just because I consider it good canine manners.

Thanks everyone, for the support. I don't know anyone that's trained their dog this way and I know a lot of people who would think I was nuts for wanting to train my dog without actually touching him. It's nice to be reassured that I'm not mad and it can be done.

For the record, I think it's important to have a verbal way of telling your dog what he's done is unacceptable. I'm a very cool-headed person, and I've discovered that my rare moments of crankiness with a misbehaving dog are pretty effective. I don't feel the need to curb my tone as well as going hands off. I shout crossly at my hare when he's chewing up things I don't want him to chew and he doesn't mind, so I figure I'm pretty safe with that one. He knows it means I'm going to chase him away if he doesn't stop what he's doing, though, so sometimes I'm sure he deliberately starts chewing on illegal items just to get me to chase him.

And willowchow, thanks for the breed-specific tips. I've picked an akita largely because of the heavy streak of independence in the breed. I love a dog that requires you to earn it's respect and trust. I guess all dogs are like that to some degree, but I was after one that I would have to really work with. It took me about 18 months to gain the hare's trust and respect, so now I'm eternally grateful for it and treat him so carefully in order to preserve it. I think it's good for me to have animals around that require some thought and planning. []

ORIGINAL: ron2

There are times when Shadow is excited and doesn't sit on the first command. I will apply gentle pressure to his rump and repeat the command. I guess I'm enforcing. He doesn't resent it, he's distracted. After that, he will listen better. Sometimes, I wouldn't have the time to go to a class. Today, for example. I'm working on a project in Lewisville. For those of you who now the metroplex area, I get to drive S.H 121 from McKinney to Lewisville and back. On top of that, I had to go to the company office in Sherman to turn in paperwork, such as my time sheet and receipts from suppliers, etc. Then, stop by DW's work to get something perishable from her. So, I didn't get home until 5:30. And I've had to work later than that, at other times.

But I do have patience and a fresh bag of treats and use the distractions of the neighbors and/or their pets to work on it.

Go ahead, give me my spanking.

Other times, he does just fine.

I don't spank, but if you go to class, I'll give you an attaboy!
A dog should sit on the first command, but here's how a clicker trainer gets them to do it.  First, click a sit, then click for only fast sits, then, later, work on straight, fast sits.  The dog who is used to "making the trainer click that thing" to get his reward is always busy figuring out what he has to do to make that happen.  And, the big one - we don't add the word (cue) "sit" until the dog is already reliably performing a quick, straight sit every time.  By then, when we finally attach the word, the dog is doing the finished behavior and completely understands what "sit" actually means!  Then, we don't need the clicker any more for that behavior.  We need only reward the nice "sit" that we have created on a variable, or intermittent, basis to keep it happening.  So, get a clicker, get Peggy Tillman's book, "Clicking With Your Dog", and give it a try - in between your busy schedule. []
I promise, you won't be sorry.  And, if you have ruined your cue word, and find yourself repeating it, just teach Shadow to sit on another command, like "butt" or some other word.

Just an afterthought - just because clicker trainers don't physically place their dogs into position doesn't mean there is no physical contact.  Obviously, we want a dog that is agreeable about being handled.  So, when my puppy goes to the vet's office, I don't only go when there's an appointment, I go to "visit" and have the receptionist pat & give a cookie.  When I do have an appointment, I bring squeeze cheese or peanut butter, to keep the little mouth busy while the shot goes in.  Sequoyah didn't even wince, and still remembers that we go to the place where they have peanut butter now and then, just for fun.  Same with the groomer.  Also, I practice T-Touch and massage on my dogs from the time they are little, or from the time I adopt them, even if I must start small on a frightened dog.  (In that case, I scratch under the chin as I feed the squeeze cheese or some turkey bits)  Acceptance of handling is important, but the dog need not be physically forced into position to learn its commands. 

As to verbal "corrections", I don't use them very often, only in situations where the dog might be in danger.  But, I do use a "no reward marker", like "oops" or "not that" to tell the dog that the offered behavior is not the one I want.  It isn't a correction, it's simply information, as if I were simply saying, "try again", and that's the conversational tone and meaning that I want to convey to the dog.

I the puppy kindergarten we took our dog to, EVERYTHING was done with using treats as a lure, then a reward once the dog "got it"... if you can get your dog's nose to follow the treat, then the body will follow!  BUT, our trainer also advised us not to let the dog "get away" with not following a command.  So, if my dog doesn't sit after I tell her to, I do gently push her rump down (and then, no treat because she didn't do it without my intervention)... if she won't "come", I tug on her lead.  I think you get better and quicker results when you get the dog to do things on their own from the beginning, but I'm not opposed to physically reinforcing the command.  And, after all, the dog would rather do something and get a treat than be manipulated into the position, so if they get the treats when they do it on their own, and not when you have to make them do something, I think it actually helps create a more willing and responsive dog. 

 It's so easy to "lure" a pup into a sit with a piece of food held over the head. I don't get the "shove the butt down" thing. If I push down on a dog's butt, the dog resists and pushes back. Since my dogs tend to be bigger than me, guess who wins that battle. If your dog doesn't sit on the first command, most likely the dog is confused or distracted, and your best bet is to just give a verbal signal "whoops, you made a mistake", make sure the dog is paying attention, and try again.