How "hands-off" can you be in training?

You want an example of why dogs need to be touched during training?
 
I am taking care of a Rottie for 2 weeks, the dog listens and knows her commands pretty well, but you need to repeat them. She jumped up on the gate this morning when I was feeding her and the gate was about to slam shut, I grabbed the gate and touched her back because I was afraid that the gate would pinch her leg.
I could tell she was not used to being handled. I called the owner, found out the dog can't be handled by anybody including the vet(dog has to be muzzled at the vet).
 
I firmly believe dogs benefit from gentle touch during training.

I had to train Maggie using a mostly hands off method. The only time I corrected her using my hands was when she was learning stay. And then I just picked her up and out her back in place.
For Maggie, if I used touch to train her, then that would be all she responded to. She is also so short it is easier to use a target stick and treat then to bend over and correct her.

I'm curious how you used hands off and body language with your hare. I'd like to learn that.

ORIGINAL: snownose

You want an example of why dogs need to be touched during training?

I am taking care of a Rottie for 2 weeks, the dog listens and knows her commands pretty well, but you need to repeat them. She jumped up on the gate this morning when I was feeding her and the gate was about to slam shut, I grabbed the gate and touched her back because I was afraid that the gate would pinch her leg.
I could tell she was not used to being handled. I called the owner, found out the dog can't be handled by anybody including the vet(dog has to be muzzled at the vet).

I firmly believe dogs benefit from gentle touch during training.

 
I think that's a little different, though, than putting a dog into a certain position (sit, down, etc.) to show them how to perform a command.  A dog should be used to people touching it in general, in all sorts of scenarios, but never in a way that would be perceived as "violent" or "aggressive" to the dog.  I play with my dogs toes, tail, ears, face.  I put my fingers in her mouth, touching her tougue and teeth.  I brush her teeth and her hair.  I pat her frequently.  I cuddle with her and pick her up.  I do all of this so that the dog is used to being touched, even learns to ENJOY being touched.  One time, a three-year-old girl poked her in the face with a stick, and not only did she not snap at the girl, she didn't even flinch!  She lets me take food out of her mouth, she lets anyone pat her, she handles shots at the vet without squirming.  It sounds like the rottie you were taking care of is generally skittish, and I would guess this is from a lack of "good" touching, or maybe it's just the dog's temprement.  But I think that's still different from the training issue.

My opinion stands.
I still feel that a dog can benefit from gentle touch during training.
I use very little treats during training, mostly praise and massage, rubbing, playing with a favorite toy.
It has worked for me, I don't see the damage in touching a dog during a session.

I don't think you're grasping the distinction. One common school of training uses physical postioning to "correct" the dog when the dog disobeys-- dog doesn't sit, dog gets forced into a sitting position. That's what we're talking about-- hands-free means to not use this method of correction. Totally different from petting, massage, gently touching to get attention back on on you.

I tought my dogs to sit by touching their behinds and making them sit while saying sit, after that was done I gave praise.
They now know how to sit without me saying a word, pointing my finger down, and snapping my fingers, believe me they get it.
So, I am hands on.....without hurting the dog(had to add that,there are people here who believe that is equal to manhandling& abuse)

Yeah I'm also kind of confused here. Of course you should touch your dogs, rub them, pet them, handle them, love them up one wall and down the other.... That's not the question. The question is the appropriateness of being physical with them (beyond petting as a reward, if they're in to that) during training.
 
I must confess that I'll physically position (gently) during non-training times when I'm just trying to make something happen so we can just get on with it already. But I'll put whatever that behavior that required the positioning on my "to-do" list to work on it so that I don't need to do that anymore. When we're doing actual training sessions there's no positioning, and there's certainly no physical corrections. If we're inside the house they don't even have to wear collars when we train.
 
I find that using my own body language often works better than positioning anyway (it's just a hard habit to break). If I move in a way that just screams to the dog "go to this spot and do what I ask" I don't even have to take my hands out of my pockets.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I don't think you're grasping the distinction. One common school of training uses physical postioning to "correct" the dog when the dog disobeys-- dog doesn't sit, dog gets forced into a sitting position. That's what we're talking about-- hands-free means to not use this method of correction. Totally different from petting, massage, gently touching to get attention back on on you.

Now I get what you are saying.  Gentle is hands-free.  I could not fathom a no touch method in training my deaf GD, such a sweet and brilliant dog.

Thanks for the info.
 
And you explained it really well, too. The dog is teaching him/herself.
 

ORIGINAL: snownose

I tought my dogs to sit by touching their behinds and making them sit while saying sit, after that was done I gave praise.
They now know how to sit without me saying a word, pointing my finger down, and snapping my fingers, believe me they get it.
So, I am hands on.....without hurting the dog(had to add that,there are people here who believe that is equal to manhandling& abuse)

 
I agree - there's a place for physical correction when training a dog.  It's not painful, brutal, or anything else - it's just a way of helping them understand the behavior you're trying to elicit.

I'm new to akitas, having just adopted Ogre abut a month and a half ago. They've quickly become my absolute favorite breed, and as picky as I can be, that's saying something. [] I can't speak for akitas in general, but I can share the experience I'm having with him.
 
Ogre is about 10 months old and he came to me knowing nothing. He had escaped from someone's backyard, and it was obvious that he had been denied the most basic training and socialization. He hadn't been abused- I don't think his old owners spent enough time with him even to bother. He was just a totally blank slate.
 
I immediately tried my usual training methods with him. I never, ever use any kind of physical punishment or corrections with my dogs, but I WAS overly confidant and could be loud, rough, and very demanding of my dogs. Looking back, I was a bit of a bully. I had never done any research into dog training, I had just been around dogs my whole life and and did what I had been taught to do. Without really knowing it, I was of the "dominate them before they dominate you, don't let them get away with ANYTHING" mindset. I used +R methods on my dogs, but my attitude was just completely wrong. Looking back, most dogs were probably just completely intimidated into doing everything I said. [] I loved my dogs, and respected them, and didn't LIKE training this way- it's just what I had been taught to do my whole life and I had no clue there was any other way out there. I had been taught my whole life that in order to have a well behaved dog, you had to completely intimidate them. Speak in a loud, demanding voice, stand up straight, never let them walk in front of you...all of that "make sure you're alpha or the dog will run completely wild" crap. I loved Cesar Millan's show and followed his philosphy completely. I honestly didn't know better and I feel awful that I've spent most of my life most likely scaring the crap out of my dogs.
 
Ogre very, VERY quickly broke me of my bad habits, though. When I got him home, he didn't know how to walk on a leash, and he was a terrible puller. So, I did what I had been taught to do- put a leash on him and a choke collar, and started walking. He immediately started pulling, and when he did, I stopped, and gave him a leash pop. He SCREAMED and immediately hit the ground and cowered. I honestly had no clue what his problem was, but I felt awful considering that I had obviously scared him to death.  My father, who was with me, told me that he was just trying to "get his way" and that if he wouldn't walk properly on the leash to "pop him again, or drag him." Seeing how obviously scared and confused he was, I couldn't do it. I sat down on the curb next to him and started petting and talking to him. Eventually, he relaxed and got up. This time I took the choke off, clipped the leash to his regular collar, and tried again. He immediately pulled. I stood completely still, he kept pulling for a minute, then realized he was getting nowhere, and came and sat down next to me. As soon as he sat, I gave him a ton of praise and within 10 minutes, he was no longer pulling and hasn't since.
 
I quickly learned that any force or harsh treatment- even the wrong tone of voice-  shuts him down COMPLETELY. His eyes glaze over, he flops down on his belly, and doesn't move. Until I'm calm enough to treat him respectfully, he won't move from that spot. Looking back, I was taught to train my dogs (by my parents) using some very harsh methods. Until Ogre, it always worked- but looking back, I was constantly frustrated, angry, and yelling at my dogs until they learned something. I thought that's just how it was.
 
Ogre, is the kindest, smartest, most sensitive dog I have ever met. He will do WHATEVER you say as long as you show him what you want, and ask nicely. As long as you are always calm, polite, and respectful towards him, he is the perfect dog. The SECOND you get frustrated with him- even if you don't show it at ALL, he shuts down. I don't know  if all akitas are this way- my akita experience is limited mostly to Ogre. But if all akitas are like him, using hands-off training methods isn't a choice...it's retty much the only way.
 
Having him has improved my relationships with my dogs so much- not only is it better for them, but I'm not longer frustrated and angry at my dogs all the time. If they're doing something wrong, I now step back, before I get angry, and figure out what I'm not effectively communicating to them. To most people here, that seems like common sense- but to me, at the time, it just went against everything I had been taught about dog training.
 
Anyway, the point is, with an akita you will pretty much HAVE to use hands-off, +R methods. I doubt they would respond to anything else. Ogre will allow me to tap him very gently on the rump or nose to get his attention- with about the same amount of force you would use tapping someone on the shoulder. Anything more and he gets insulted and upset, and shuts down.
 
I think, if you're looking for a challenge, you will LOVE akitas. Raised properly, they can be the absolute best dogs in the world- and in my case at least, teach you ALOT about the right way of communicating with and training a dog. In my experience, akitas won't tolerate people who don't respect them, and trying to "dominate" them will ruin your relationship and most likely ruin the dog as well. In my limited experience, they aren't as "Willfull" as they're made out to be- they just need to be asked nicely, and once you show them a little respect, they'll fall all over themselves to please you. At least, that's how Ogre is- he may just be weird.[]
 
Anyway, I know this is a long post- akitas are not for everyone, but you definitely seem to be going about things the right way. They're not a "difficult" breed- they just aren't as willing to put up with ignorant, rude treatment from humans as most others. [] 

loved Cesar Millan's show and followed his philosphy completely. I honestly didn't know better and I feel awful that I've spent most of my life most likely scaring the crap out of my dogs.

 
Did you get the part about him working and rehabilitating dogs that are beyond the usual training?
 
Your post indicates you fell into the disclaimer croud.

ORIGINAL: snownose

loved Cesar Millan's show and followed his philosphy completely. I honestly didn't know better and I feel awful that I've spent most of my life most likely scaring the crap out of my dogs.

Did you get the part about him working and rehabilitating dogs that are beyond the usual training?

Your post indicates you fell into the disclaimer croud.

 
Yep. I've also read his book. I'm not going to get into a CM argument here- my opinion of him is that, in situations where he is the last resort for an extremely agressive dog, he does a great job. For the average person who is going to take his advice and try to apply it to a normal dog, his methods are a disaster waiting to happen. If I had spent more than 10 minutes trying to train Ogre using his methods, I probably would have ended with a completely broken, reactive, aggressive dog. It would have ruined him, and our relationship, at the very least- and I would probably be lucky if I still had all my limbs when it was said and done with.
 
But again, not going to get into a CM argument here. If you like him, cool. He's not for me.

Beyond usual training means just that.
 
That would not include me, perhaps not you, unless you have a dog beyond that.
 
You stated you followed his philosophies, so, who screwed up here?
 

No, as a matter of fact, I don't have a dog beyond that. []
 
Cesar Millan makes it seem like his way works for all dogs. If you read his book, he encourages ALL dog owners to follow his philosophy- not just the owners of "Red Zone" dogs, as he puts it.
 
So I fail to see how I "screwed up" here.
 
Either way, there's no need for you to get snipey with me- and I'm going to end this discussion before you get worse. []