How "hands-off" can you be in training?

I loved Cesar Millan's show and followed his philosphy completely. I honestly didn't know better and I feel awful that I've spent most of my life most likely scaring the crap out of my dogs.

Hold up, I am confused, first you write the above.

Then you make the following statement:

If I had spent more than 10 minutes trying to train Ogre using his methods, I probably would have ended with a completely broken, reactive, aggressive dog. It would have ruined him, and our relationship, at the very least- and I would probably be lucky if I still had all my limbs when it was said and done with.


So, which is it?
 
Oh, I remember you, you have another thread going with your Chi having big problems, hope that is getting better.

Brittany, your experience with Ogre is a lot like my experience with Marlowe. I found myself with a highly independent, sensitive dog who would not be intimidated by me but would instead just walk away and ignore all my ranting and raving.  The minute you get frustrated with him, he's done with you. Try to force him to do something physically and he just resists quietly and completely. I'm not even sure that what he did was "shut down", he just stopped paying any attention to you at all, period.  He reminded me of when I was younger--my parents would lecture me and I would just totally go off into my own little world, not listening to a thing they said. I had to find another way to train him that didn't involve manhandling or scolding him. 
 
I once had an akita mix. Magnificent dog. Absolutely special. I trained him traditionally and he very sportingly put up with it. I wish I had known more about dog training at the time (this was 5 years ago) because his potential was just amazing and I never allowed him to fully live up to it. I was way too busy bossing him around.

Just another thought from me with a similar type of breed. 

Your not going to want to man handle the dog in any way.  No forcing them to do anything, they don't take well to that. 

BUT, your going to need to expect that things that work for other people might not work for your dog.  And, that's because like I said, stuff that most dogs will love they could care less about.  For example, what was said about bringing food or cheese to the vet. . .that would work wonders for most dogs, right.  Willow wouldn't even look at it in that situation. 

To everyone who physically positions their dogs during training or anything remotely similar, I don't think it's abuse or mean or anything like that. People make choices about their training methods based on what works for them and their dogs. For me, I've found that I just want to go more and more gentle. Not because I think anything else is mean, just because it's the way I like to operate. I've also begun to suspect that leashes are a little like a loaded gun and our tendency to yank on them or try to control the dog through them doesn't always help. It occurred to me recently that I was very quick to yank on that leash, even when I didn't need to. I just did it without thinking. I'd prefer a leash to be more like a safety line than anything. I want us to forget it even exists except for those emergency moments when it allows me to hold onto a dog that's about to bolt off into a dangerous situation. That's just personal preference.

The way I've been interacting with my hare is not quite training, but it's pretty close. Because he's such a nervous and flighty creature, once he was weaned I discovered he was prone to panicking, which led to him being hurt a couple of times when I frightened him and he charged off in a blind panic and ran into something. So I had to learn to be more sensitive around him for his protection. I learnt to recognise the signs that he was feeling anxious about my proximity, and I learnt ways to put him at ease when he was like that, like looking away, relaxing my body, leaning away from him. When he was feeling calm, I'd sit down and feed him fruit, which he loves. He'd sit on my lap and suck grapes. So he learnt that I didn't pursue him when he was afraid, and that I was a source of yummy food. The trust between us built naturally, and Kit began to learn that he could get my attention with certain behaviour. I think one of the turning points was when he started making loads of noise if he was very uncomfortable. He'd wake me up at night repeatedly if he was unexpectedly out of water, and he let me know he was in the sun one time I was taking him back to the folk's place in the car. He seemed to have made the connection that I could make him more comfortable and all he had to do was get my attention.

These days, we're at the point where he has learnt what happens when he offers certain behaviours. If he wants me to pat his head, he sits still and when I bring my hand near him, he sniffs it, then butts his head against it. If he doesn't want pats, he pulls his head away and I leave him be. If he wants to smell my hand, he'll often stand up on his back legs and poke his nose out of the cage and follow me as I move around. If he wants treats, he'll go to the spot where I give him treats and stand up on his back legs. He learnt these things by getting the results he wanted. If I'd tried to position him physically, he would have freaked out. It's taken a long time, but I think we communicate quite well, now. He trains me as much as I've trained him. I've learnt to look for patterns in his behaviour and offer him things I think he might be asking for, and if I was right, he'll offer the behaviour again when he wants the same thing. [] I often say he can speak Melissa very well, but he seems to get confused by other people, so I guess he can't speak human so well.

Thanks for your akita account, rasticles. What you said made sense to me. I have long suspected akitas get a bad rap obedience wise because people aren't treating them with the respect they require. Ogre sounds like the perfect dog, in my eyes. I'm glad you realised what would work best with him and had the courage to step away from what you knew to try something new.[] Since I met my hare, I've begun to see my relationship with my dog as being less than it could be. It has always been good, but it wasn't until I discovered just how deeply you can bond with an animal that I realised my relationship with Penny is not as harmonious. One time I was tired and cranky and Penny thought the best thing she could do was to sook up and get underfoot. It made me crankier and I ended up sending her to bed. While she was desperately trying to appease me in case it was her I was cranky over, Kit just waited until I came to put him to bed, then gave me a very rare but thorough hare smooch. It was exactly what I needed and I was amazed that he could understand my complex moods better than Penny could, when she's known me for nearly 11 years. Might have been just the nature of dogs versus the nature of hares, but I just didn't think it was in a hare's nature to show affection towards an obviously tired and cross member of the family.

So I really don't think there's anything wrong with gentle corrections or placing your dog during training as such, I just don't want to do it. And if I don't have to do it, then good.

Willowchow, I know the feeling. [] Penny is terrified of thunder and fireworks. No matter what I fed her during one of those events, she wouldn't ever get any better. Similarly, Kit the hare likes treats, but won't take them if he's mildly upset, anxious or just doesn't feel like it. My domestic bunny is a little like that, too. I've been clicker training her, and I pretty much have to do it in stints of a minute or two at a time and pick a time when she might feel like coming out and working for treats.

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

Shadow will do just about anything for a treat. Except go into the vet's office. When I took him to get his vacc updated, we could get to the door and I had a treat. He was nervous, fearful and could care less for the treat. So, I asked the vet if we could do this outside. And he said, sure, some of his clients have received their shots in the family car because that's where they are comfortable. We eventually wound up by the cattle gate where he can intake cows and horses. Then, Shadow was able to accept treats from the vet. I had a hold on the attachment ring of Shadow's harness and used my other hand to keep his head against my chest and not able to view the vet with the needle. The vet had kept a hand on him will going around behind. And we had Shadow muzzled. The shot didn't bother him at all and was rather anti-climactic. To me, this was a better solution than getting super-dominant and scruff him down and pin. But, just the same, he was nervous until we found a place where he was calm, but it still required physical measures, though non-harmful and as benign as we could make it.

ORIGINAL: houndlove
I must confess that I'll physically position (gently) during non-training times when I'm just trying to make something happen so we can just get on with it already. But I'll put whatever that behavior that required the positioning on my "to-do" list to work on it so that I don't need to do that anymore. When we're doing actual training sessions there's no positioning, and there's certainly no physical corrections. If we're inside the house they don't even have to wear collars when we train.

 
That makes sense.  I never put my hand on Scout's butt to teach her how to sit... I did it with a treat lure.  Now that she knows how to sit, she doesn't even get treats anymore, because she sits for things she wants even more... going outside, dinner, toys or bones, petting, and she usually does it automatically, without me even having to tell her.  BUT, she can be a bit stubborn, and sometimes I want her to sit and she doesn't, so then I will put my hand on her butt and gently push it down.  It's a command she already knows, and I'm simply not giving her the option to refuse to follow it.  It's not a punishment or anything, it's just me saying "Ok, you don't want to sit, too bad, you will anyway."  And she doesn't resist it at all when I do it, so I don't think it's doing any harm.
 
I did use physical manipulation to get her to "give paw", though, because I couldn't think of any other way to give the dog the signal I wanted her to put her paw in my hand without first taking her paw into my hand while giving the command.  And it worked just fine, she does it reliably everytime.  So I guess it depends on the situation... some commands that might be more complex to the dog may require you to physically show the dog what to do, and I think that's fine.   Same thing with "fetch", at first I had to reel her back to me on her lead for her to understand that she was supposed to come back to me with the ball, and that worked fine, too.

ORIGINAL: snownose

I tought my dogs to sit by touching their behinds and making them sit while saying sit, after that was done I gave praise.
They now know how to sit without me saying a word, pointing my finger down, and snapping my fingers, believe me they get it.
So, I am hands on.....without hurting the dog(had to add that,there are people here who believe that is equal to manhandling& abuse)

This thread, however, is about "how hands off can you be?"  Have you ever tried a hands off method?

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I don't think you're grasping the distinction. One common school of training uses physical postioning to "correct" the dog when the dog disobeys-- dog doesn't sit, dog gets forced into a sitting position. That's what we're talking about-- hands-free means to not use this method of correction. Totally different from petting, massage, gently touching to get attention back on on you.

Now I get what you are saying.  Gentle is hands-free.  I could not fathom a no touch method in training my deaf GD, such a sweet and brilliant dog.

You can clicker train a deaf dog - you just use a pushbutton flashlight instead of the clicker)

ORIGINAL: snownose

I loved Cesar Millan's show and followed his philosphy completely. I honestly didn't know better and I feel awful that I've spent most of my life most likely scaring the crap out of my dogs.

Hold up, I am confused, first you write the above.

Then you make the following statement:

If I had spent more than 10 minutes trying to train Ogre using his methods, I probably would have ended with a completely broken, reactive, aggressive dog. It would have ruined him, and our relationship, at the very least- and I would probably be lucky if I still had all my limbs when it was said and done with.


So, which is it?

Oh, I remember you, you have another thread going with your Chi having big problems, hope that is getting better.

You are way OT - it's about "how hands off can you be?"  Leash pop for you, snownose.  Maybe you should stick to that instead of getting testy with Ratsicles, who is entitled to an opinion that differs from yours.

I would have to say I am 99% hands free in general training.  I am 100% hands free when teaching new behaviors.  I use a clicker to mark the behavior and will either try and get the behavior by shaping or lure (depending on what I am doing).  Like others have said, when I talk about "hands free" I do not mean I never touch my dog during training.  I always give scratches, ear rubs and pats telling Dasher he is a good boy, but that is usually after he has offered the behavior and he has gotten a "click" or "yes" or treat.  The only time I put my hands on my dog is if for example he is out in the yard running the fence line b/c there is a cat on the other side.  Most times when I say "leave it" and "come" he does, but if he doesn't I will go over and get him.  Nothing harsh, I just walk over, pick him up and bring him inside.  That is usually enough for him and next time he comes on the first call.  Even as a puppy when teaching him to heel it was really just using treats, and changing directions, etc.  Don't get me wrong, if left to his own devices Dasher would pull me into next week, but by asking him to heel and reminding him using positive methods as opposed to just yanking on him he gets with the program.  I think with Dasher would could probably yank on him all day, it wouldn't faze him.  Its about getting his mind to listen, not his body. The best way for me to do this is not by force but using things like a clicker, or treats, etc. 

Wolfgang is believed to be Malinois/Akita. He's really a good dog with absolutely no aggression toward any living being--humans, dogs, cats etc. He's been pretty much hands off trained, but my one exception is that sometimes he is a bit impulsive. At times he doesn't appear to be able to shed himself of the distraction by voice alone and I will tap him with one finger on his rump.
 
P.S. Snownose, I thought your comment to Ratsicles was mean.
 
 

You are way OT - it's about "how hands off can you be?" Leash pop for you, snownose. Maybe you should stick to that instead of getting testy with Ratsicles, who is entitled to an opinion that differs from yours.

 
I am sorry, are you the forum police?
If so, then I apologize, I didn't realize.[]
 
I asked a question in reference to a post.

P.S. Snownose, I thought your comment to Ratsicles was mean.

 
If it came across mean, I apologize.
 
I felt ratsicles was giving conflicting information.
In addition I felt that her using Cesar's philosophies fell into the disclaimer croud, I think I ointed that out by stating the obvious, Cesar's show is for dogs BEYOND regular training.

I have long suspected akitas get a bad rap obedience wise because people aren't treating them with the respect they require.

 
That's exactly what I'm learning with Ogre. When I got him, everyone told me I was "in for it" with him and I was really, really prepared for a fight. I very quickly figured out that he wasn't willfull, or disobediant- he just didn't respond to bossy treatment or manhandling. The whole "Do what I say because I'm the boss" thing just doesn't work with akitas. They are wonderfully intelligent dogs, and even trainable dogs- if you relate to them properly.
 
Working with them is alot like working with other people- if you were at a dinner party, and you leaned over to someone and said "GIVE ME THE SALT NOW" you would probably get a much different response than if you said "Will you please pass the salt?" Dogs that respond well to the former are usually considered the "smartest" and "most trainable." Akitas, when given the former, would most likely look at you like "Who the heck are you? How dare you talk to me that way?" and that's how they get their bad wrap.
 
So, I can definitely see why akitas have the stigma they do- most people expect dogs to mind them just because. In my experience, it's all about how you relate to them- if you insist on being bossy with them, you're in for an uphill battle probably for the life of the dog. If you take them time to step back, drop the ego, and just be polite, they're more than happy to oblige. Once I figured that out, Ogre quickly showed me everything he could do. He's pretty much become my cart horse- he loves to carry things for me and bring people things, and in 6 weeks I've taught him the names of about 10 different objects, all of which he will "fetch" for me on command, and bring them to anyone in the house that I ask. It's amazing how many household tasks he's learning to help out with. And to think- if I had kept up with the usual training methods with him, I would likely be sitting here talking about how disobediant and "stupid" he is []
 
 So no, he's *not* the most obediant dog I've ever had- he most certainly has a mind of his own. But he is the smartest, if I go about things nicely, I can get him to do what I ask about 90% of the time. He is absolutely the best teacher I have ever had. []

I would say i am 50-50, body blocking and right attitute are some of my "hands-off" methods []