Boerboel

OT but thank you,,,

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

His own website for his soley owned business "the psycology center" labels him as a dog behavior specialist.  Behavior-list, hello awsomedog - same thing! 

That's your opinion only, sorry But I disagree, they're not the same thing. Your putting your twist on it because you got nothing else. But keep digging.

So what is the difference Awsomedog, please enlighten us.  A dog behavior Speicalist is what?  And a behaviorlist is what?  What is the difference?  In YOUR opinion?
 
 I would love to get your twist -....

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Awsomedog, have you read or seen the book Scaredy Dog? I mentioned it a few posts ago. The intro to the book describes the author's DA dog whose condition was only worsened by the actions of a behaviorist ('hanging' him by his collar in response to his aggression). She slowly rehabbed him through desensitization much as mrv described. What do you think of this?

 
Well we would need to be there at that moment to see what she means by "hanging", some people believe that CM also "hangs" dogs and i can tell you thats absolutely incorrect
 
Also we would need to know how good the behaviorist was about applying the techniques, probably he sucks as behaviorist and was doing it all wrong
 
I think that by saying "condition was only worsened by the actions of a behaviorist " make it sounds like all of them are wrong and not just that one

Architect - person that went to college and got a degree in architecture

Architecture expert - person that knows a lot about architecture, but we're not sure how or where he/she learned. Also, there are no set standards as to what qualifies you as an expert, so for all we know in some cases knowing who Frank Lloyd Wright is and being able to describe a couple of his creations qualifies you as an expert.


I know, I know....we're talking about dogs, how dare I bring up an analogy that is not specific to dogs and Cesar Millan?, shame on me. I'm also aware that that is only my worthless opinion.

Well we would need to be there at that moment to see what she means by "hanging", some people believe that CM also "hangs" dogs and i can tell you thats absolutely incorrect

Also we would need to know how good the behaviorist was about applying the techniques, probably he sucks as behaviorist and was doing it all wrong

I think that by saying "condition was only worsened by the actions of a behaviorist " make it sounds like all of them are wrong and not just that one

 
The book provides more details than I gave. I don't have it here in front of me to check back on, but.... I thought I remembered that his timing and execution were good, he had lots of experience doing this sort of thing .... but regardless it is a position of discomfort and vulnerability for a dog (and probably pain, I don't know because I've never experienced it!). Thus, the dog associated the pain/vulnerability/discomfort with the presence of the dog in front of him. And there, the damage was done.
 
I've never seen CM hang a dog with my own eyes so no comment there. If you say he hasn't, I'll believe you!

I'm also aware that that is only my worthless opinion.

 
Are you sure you really realize it though? It is, after all, just your opinion. So you may as well not share it. This forum is no place for opinions.
 
Anyway in conclusion your post was just *your* opinion.

Are you sure you really realize it though? It is, after all, just your opinion. So you may as well not share it. This forum is no place for opinions. Anyway in conclusion your post was just *your* opinion.

Notice how I also added "worthless" just to be on the safe side......

Good idea. You certainly aren't qualified to add any comments to the conversation at this point. []

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Anyway, trying to get the conversation back to some useful topic....

Awsomedog, have you read or seen the book Scaredy Dog? I mentioned it a few posts ago. The intro to the book describes the author's DA dog whose condition was only worsened by the actions of a behaviorist ('hanging' him by his collar in response to his aggression). She slowly rehabbed him through desensitization much as mrv described. What do you think of this?

Alright, now I like when we can discuss something like this. Like myself, I never seen Cesar "hang a dog". I've seen him take one off his/her front feet when their going to or are trying to attack, which anyone who ***actually*** works with aggressive dogs knows that's how you stop the bite (however, if you or mrv know a better way to stop a bite i'd love to hear it). It is what you do next that is important as well. I've seen trainer's hang dogs, I do not agree with this method, and the reason I don't. I deal with the worst of worst cases, and know hurting a dog does not help a dog. As far as the "trainer" hanging the dog, and the owner actually helping the dog, that only tells me that perhaps the trainer is one who only knows one way to teach dogs. And that's just, bad. I'm going to keep saying this, there is no one method that is right for every dog, period. That's what makes Cesar so successful in rehabilitating dogs, he uses no one method, he simply breaks it down to the most simple form, one the dog understands. When one tries to nutshell the way it should be done as mrv did, (when "he's" never done it) those of us who work with extreme aggression cases know, it just doesn't work like that for every dog. I'm not saying, it can't be done that way with some dogs (which I wish some of you could see). I'm saying, it doesn't work for every case.

which anyone who ***actually*** works with aggressive dogs knows that's how you stop the bite (however, if you or mrv know a better way to stop a bite i'd love to hear it).

 
Maybe a better way to stop a bite (remember we are discussing Scaredy Dog here) would be to *not* march your DA dog up to another dog and then attempt to deal with the aftermath once the dog's already worked up and reactive. Mrv's desensitization solution, which is pretty much identical to the author's, is to slowly desensitize the dog in a method that involves never getting the dog to that reactive state. Thus, no bites, no dog fights, no hanging.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog


I've seen him take one off his/her front feet when their going to or are trying to attack, which anyone who ***actually*** works with aggressive dogs knows that's how you stop the bite

 
So if a dog is going to bite me should i grab one of his front legs? why is that? what should the person do after grabbing the leg? lease explain, that could save my life one day []

ORIGINAL: mrv

I know it is a dead horse, but it one I can not resist at the moment.[]

Specifically to Awsomedog.

If you will reread my posts, I never bashed Cesar Milan, his approaches or his skills.  Go back and check.  I objected to his mass media impact which may put people at risk.  This is of concern to me because of breed specific legislation which will likely name my breeds of choice soon.

I've read your post and understand exactly what your trying to do. Stupid people do stupid things, that is not yours , mine, or, Cesar fault or problem. By the way, are there any stats out there showing if Cesar is doing more good, or puttong people at risk? You may want to think about that. Um, dude, he's one of the people trying to stop BSL's while others are running around yelling "pit bulls are natural born KILLERS). Sooo.

I offered a strategy for aggression that I have implemented and that I have seen implemented by others.

What level of aggression are you talking? I thought you turned the really aggressive dog away? So I'm not as interested in what you've seen vs what *you* have done yourself. I also have no clue as to how bad off the dog that was being worked with was, and I've walked in expecting myself to kind a crazed killer on my hands (because that's what was described to me) only to find, the dog simply didn't respect his/her owners. Those are the just to easy. But because I work with extreme aggressive cases, I know what needs to be done because I'm the one doing it, it's rediculous to sit back and have someone who *doesn't* do it, tell me how it's done. Rediculous.

To attack a person's intent, skills because they dont match Cesar's....isnt that the pot calling the kettle back.

You misunderstand sir. I'm not attacking your skills, I'm saying one should not sit in judgement or criticize people who do something that *you* can't do, and *claim* there's a better way. If people would at least *try* to put their emotions aside when reading what I'm saying, one just might, get it.

But because I work with extreme aggressive cases, I know what needs to be done because I'm the one doing it, it's rediculous to sit back and have someone who *doesn't* do it, tell me how it's done. Rediculous.

 
I think we need to stop focusing so much on who says they're a trainer, who deals with this, who deals with that. Your response to almost every post is "I deal with really extreme aggression and you don't, so you don't know what you're talking about."
 
Well let's be honest - this is an internet forum. With some exceptions, most of us don't know each other outside of the internet. You claim to be a dog trainer who deals with a lot of aggressive dogs. None of us knows if this is fact or just a dream of yours. Same with everyone else on the board. So why don't we talk about the way we feel is correct to deal with dog issues, and stop putting down other members because you feel you're more qualified than them. Saying "I actually deal with aggressive dogs, so I know what I'm talking about" is a dead-end post and really it's up to the viewer to decide who seems to know what they're talking about.

Mrv's desensitization solution, which is pretty much identical to the author's, is to slowly desensitize the dog in a method that involves never getting the dog to that reactive state. Thus, no bites, no dog fights, no hanging

The behaviourist we're getting to help us with our dog's reactivity problems outlined a plan that is also based on desensitizing the dog. As far as I could understand this protocol also applies to some cases of aggression. First we work on getting the dog's atention on cue, thru obedience routines etc. The second "phase" introduces the scent of whatever triggers the reaction (dogs in this case), we're going to be using towels and other dogs' toys, and again, with those scents in place we work once more in getting the dog's attention. Third phase, same thing but add the sound of dogs to the picture. It is only when we can get him to listen to us, and be calm when dog scents and sounds are present that we introduce actual dogs. It is my understanding that once we start working with other dogs present there's a bunch of excercises, sush as meeting dogs, walking away from another dog on cue etc.

She also stressed that for the time being, since the whole point is to bring dogs into the picture slowly, to limit as much as possible my dog's contact with other dogs. The explaniation behind that is that on one hand if dogs are present thru out the "therapy plan" well, the plan itself is pointless. The second reason is that these outbursts (whether they are true agression or just reactivity) release certain brain chemicals that I wont even try to spell, that prolong the state of stress in the dog, thus making learning more difficult.

When I asked her what to do in case we accidentally walked up to a dog and my dog threw a fit, she told me to simply try to remove my dog in the most neutral way possible (i.e. walk away), but to generally try and make sure that dog-dog meetings don't happen.

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

His own website for his soley owned business "the psycology center" labels him as a dog behavior specialist.  Behavior-list, hello awsomedog - same thing! 

That's your opinion only, sorry But I disagree, they're not the same thing. Your putting your twist on it because you got nothing else. But keep digging.

So what is the difference Awsomedog, please enlighten us.  A dog behavior Speicalist is what?  And a behaviorlist is what?  What is the difference?  In YOUR opinion?

I would love to get your twist -....

Unlike you I have no twist. Someone goes to college, gets a degree and becomes a "behaviorist" that's the title the collage has chosen to give them. They can therefore call themself a Behaviorist. Someone who goes up with dogs, studies and works with dogs most of their life and has a natural understanding of dogs can state they are a Behavior specialist. AGAIN they are not using the title that is handed out by the colleges. What is so hard to get about that. See, no twist, just simple common sense.

I know someone who grew up with his dad teaching him about cars, (his dad was a mechanic) he has worked on them all his life, can built one from top to bottom, and stays up on all new information. He does not call himself a mechanic, he says he's a automotive expert (and he his).

Now, I've stated my opinion, and that's it. If it's not good enough for your title issues, oh well.