Boerboel

Now, Awesomedog, I love you to death, Honey. But we need to tone things down a bit. How about we start over a bit less aggressively - remember calm & assertive! Here's a good way of rephrasing that message:

What do you think Cesar did that helped the Boerboel where the other trainers methods failed?

MY take on the trainer was that she managed to trust him with herself, but never had the courage to try him in other situations. As Cesar demonstrated, he wasn't aggressive. He was fearful and unsure of himself. I think the girl that was working with him did a wonderful job of helping him trust HER, which made Cesar's job easier. She just didn't trust herself enough to work with him. I don't blame her - in some of those shots he was down right frightening! Beautiful, but frightening!

It is so sad that Patti LaBelle was fearful of her own dog for that long. It was very moving at the end when Cesar had her walk him and pet him. At least she had the kindness to hire a trainer to work with him. He would have been a wreck otherwise. I'd never heard of Boerboels before. They are truly stunning dogs!

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

Now, Awesomedog, I love you to death, Honey. But we need to tone things down a bit. How about we start over a bit less aggressively - remember calm & assertive! Here's a good way of rephrasing that message:

I understand where your coming from, and I love that there are poeple like you who can be nice no matter how ugly other poeple are being. I understand when Cesar uses the term "calm assertive". I however like Cesar learned my own way, and I also had some of the best teachers and mentors one could hope to have. I tend to use calm with attitude, that's my way. I think the poeple here who like Cesar have taken a pretty good beating from the *we have nothing against Cesar[]* crowd.  So if I'm curt in the way I say things, perhaps it's time to ask themselves why, or they could just keep using the block botton.

And let me add, the reason I posted this was because I'm tired of hearing "Cesar's wrong and there's a better way, it just might take longer."  They love to say that. I think three years was plenty of time. and while the trainer was able to make the dog ok with her, what else did she really accomplish? Nothing. the dog was insecure and had some bad behavior issues.  Ones she couldn't fix. Just pointing out a simple fact here.

 jen

By the way, I know you were trying to help me out, my guess is you have a good heart. So thanks, and know that I appreciate it. So down a notch it goes. At least for now. LOL

I loved when the trainer said "i read tons and tons of books and all of them contradict eachother, when i saw CM working, everything falls into place" i thought she was right, you read some books and they say one thing and others say the opposite, how are you going to know who is right?

The trainer was also insecure, thats why she didnt bring the dog to her house either, wrong move right there to feel that way, it was also really interesting that even when she was a trainer she was having dogs with their own behavioral problems which  shows that dog training and dog psychology are 2 different things

The final thing that i didnt understand is why Patty LaBelle came with high heels to walk a dog!!!! hehe ah those celebrities []

 jen By the way, I know you were trying to help me out, my guess is you have a good heart. So thanks, and know that I appreciate it. So down a notch it goes. At least for now. LOL

Thanks Awesomedog! We both like Cesar, we just have different ways of making our point. I just don't want the Cesar talks to get lost in the "Behavioral Warfare" that's been breaking out. It has been so tough to hold back my feelings on some posts - but I'm glad I have so far (mostly!)

I loved when the trainer said "i read tons and tons of books and all of them contradict eachother, when i saw CM working, everything fall into place" i thought she was right, you read some books and they say one thing and others say the opposite, how are you going to know who is right?

The poor thing had probably read *too* much and hadn't the foggiest idea how to actually implement all the knowledge she acquired. That can really undermmine her confidence and cause her to be so worried about doing it *right* that she ends up not doing anything at all. It really goes to show how books can only get you so far. Hands on training is just as vital. Learning to train dogs from a book would be like learning to drive a car using only books.

Are you saying that you would assume that because one positive trainer (whose credentials or abilities we know nothing about) failed with a particular dog, that somehow that is an indictment against positive training as a methodology?  If Cesar fails to rehab a dog, is that an indication that his whole methodology doesn't work?  Somehow, I don't think so.  And, in fact, on the show, Cesar has suggested positive training to some of the clients.  So, perhaps it is safe to say that an individual trainer failed, but another positive trainer might have been quite successful dealing with the dog.  I don't see how this is such a "gotcha" moment, and I'm with Jen that the point is to ask what Cesar did that worked, rather than perseverate on the fact that it was a positive trainer who didn't continue to the level that the dog needed to achieve.  So, what specifically do you all think that Cesar did that made the difference?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Are you saying that you would assume that because one positive trainer (whose credentials or abilities we know nothing about) failed with a particular dog, that somehow that is an indictment against positive training as a methodology?  If Cesar fails to rehab a dog, is that an indication that his whole methodology doesn't work?  Somehow, I don't think so.  And, in fact, on the show, Cesar has suggested positive training to some of the clients.  So, perhaps it is safe to say that an individual trainer failed, but another positive trainer might have been quite successful dealing with the dog.  I don't see how this is such a "gotcha" moment, and I'm with Jen that the point is to ask what Cesar did that worked, rather than perseverate on the fact that it was a positive trainer who didn't continue to the level that the dog needed to achieve.  So, what specifically do you all think that Cesar did that made the difference?

 
I think part of it has to do with what each canine professional brings to the table. You can define yourself with a philosophy, but every person's perspective and experience level, is different.
 
I've run into a couple of clients who have been to every trainer in the area, from Koehler to clicker training, but still can't make progress with their dog's issues.
 
I think part of what Cesar does which makes him so successful, is the very direct way he delivers a "wake up" call to the owners.
 
Dogs are easy...
 
 

So, what specifically do you all think that Cesar did that made the difference?

 
Well, I think, and this is just my opinion and from my own experiences with Willow when she was at her worst.  Is that a lot (NOT ALL) professionals have a negative attitude about aggressive dogs right off.  Where CM goes into the situation with the this CAN be fixed attitude.  And, also a you can do this, Lori, kind of attitude. 

My experiences were always, ugh, I don't know. . .she's not doing this, she's not doing that. . .I think she's going to be too much for you. . .maybe you should put her down.  It was all negative like there was no hope and that I couldn't possibly deal with her/the situation (and they said this to me no matter how much I said I loved her and wanted to help her) 

To be honest, at times I went home and resented these trainers because they made it actually harder for me because they put fear in me which she picked right up on and took advantage of.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Are you saying that you would assume that because one positive trainer (whose credentials or abilities we know nothing about) failed with a particular dog, that somehow that is an indictment against positive training as a methodology? 

No i am not, i was talking about a specific person and her specific comment

*click to Anne aaaaaaaaaand treat* []

So, what specifically do you all think that Cesar did that made the difference?

 
Not having seen that episode but knowing his methods and philosophy, what he did was assume control and leader position. By providing a structure where the dog is not in charge and by taking control of the environment, he took the mantle of authority over, which released the burden from the dog, who could finally trust more than one human and trust that a human can handle the problems. Practically, he took some choice away from the dog as, given the choice, the dog was still fearful. Always allowing a dog to choose is not providing leadership but allowing the faults of the dog to define the environment.

It was really interesting for me to see them working with a Boerboel, as it turns out Boerboels and Filas have very similar origins. My wife and I were impressed at how much that dog looks like our dog. I have seen this pattern with these sort of dogs, since they are large and impressive people tend to be scared of them, which only fuels their insecurities. I guess the problem gets much worse when the owners are the very people that are scared of the dog, therefore the dog only knows fearful people.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Are you saying that you would assume that because one positive trainer (whose credentials or abilities we know nothing about) failed with a particular dog, that somehow that is an indictment against positive training as a methodology?

Nope, AND! I knew you'd say that. I simply pointed out that someone using R+ training, AND! had three years to do so couldn't get the job done. Why? Because some people (including trainers) don't understand the difference between OBT and behavior. And R+ training *will not* work with or in every case.

If Cesar fails to rehab a dog, is that an indication that his whole methodology doesn't work?  Somehow, I don't think so.

*If* is the key word, and sinse Cesar is rehabilitating dogs, not obt-ing them, the failure falls on owners that don't follow through, or if the dog has a mental issue. However that is something Cesar would make them aware of.

And, in fact, on the show, Cesar has suggested positive training to some of the clients.

Because like me, he sees nothing wrong with R+ training for obt work. Why would he? One of the techniques I used for obt was R+ (minus the clicker).  IMO Cesar doesn't see anything wrong with different types of training as long as it doesn't include hurting the dog. So while "some trainers" are running around and bashing him every chance they get, (because they can't and don't get it) he just keeps trying to help dogs with whatever they need. And if that means obt, on top of the rehabilition, what's wrong with that?

So, perhaps it is safe to say that an individual trainer failed, but another positive trainer might have been quite successful dealing with the dog.

Maybe, maybe not, we don't know that for sure now do we? Oh we can guess, but that's not the same as knowing, now is it?

I don't see how this is such a "gotcha" moment, and I'm with Jen that the point is to ask what Cesar did that worked, rather than perseverate on the fact that it was a positive trainer who didn't continue to the level that the dog needed to achieve.  So, what specifically do you all think that Cesar did that made the difference?

That's a easy one, infact, to easy. He worked with the dog the way the dog understood, not what the *human* thinks the dog understands. I amazed how that's so hard for some to see.

Cesar's wrong and there's a better way, it just might take longer." They love to say that. I think three years was plenty of time. and while the trainer was able to make the dog ok with her, what else did she really accomplish? Nothing. the dog was insecure and had some bad behavior issues. Ones she couldn't fix. Just pointing out a simple fact here.

Awsome, even you must admit that poor girl was no trainer, she didn't even have her own dogs under control. If you ask me Patti was getting ripped off, but mostly the dog was. But I don't think she was in anyway malicious in deed. The ethical thing to do would have been to recommend someone else.
 
And I don't think this was a bad dog to begin w/ just a bunch of clueless people around him and miscommunication on the humans part. I love Patti LaBelle but after what I saw today she shouldn't own dogs.