How can this be?

I will include a post with the exerpt this evening,,,, really rushed for time but did not want folks to feel the request was ignored or forgotten.

ORIGINAL: JM

Well I think the danger is not within Ceasar but people themselves. I don't consider Ceasar to be "sneaky".  That was your word, not mine.

The scenario is as follows:  someone watches his show regurlarly. 

Soon they start with Mom's dog, then Granny's, then the neighbors. 

Maybe eventually pick up a client here and there that mom, granny or neighbor knows, and walk their dog and practice some more. Give the advice of  staying "calm and assertive" and projecting the proper energy and such.

Well, seeings how they have been around Granny's dog since they were 10, got a bit of experience with "clients" they are now a professional trainer with 15 years experience.

I am seeing this a lot on forums.  People are coming out of the wood work defending CM and saying they are professional trainers all the while not being able to discuss other trainers and theories.

This really bothers me, too.  Whether you like CM or not, he is not the only "dog behavior expert" in the world.  Why not discuss how his methods compare to Pryor, Koehler, Dunbar, Sdao, or Aloff?  What's wrong with being educated?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: JM

Well I think the danger is not within Ceasar but people themselves. I don't consider Ceasar to be "sneaky".  That was your word, not mine.

The scenario is as follows:  someone watches his show regurlarly. 

Soon they start with Mom's dog, then Granny's, then the neighbors. 

Maybe eventually pick up a client here and there that mom, granny or neighbor knows, and walk their dog and practice some more. Give the advice of  staying "calm and assertive" and projecting the proper energy and such.

Well, seeings how they have been around Granny's dog since they were 10, got a bit of experience with "clients" they are now a professional trainer with 15 years experience.

I am seeing this a lot on forums.  People are coming out of the wood work defending CM and saying they are professional trainers all the while not being able to discuss other trainers and theories.

This really bothers me, too.  Whether you like CM or not, he is not the only "dog behavior expert" in the world.  Why not discuss how his methods compare to Pryor, Koehler, Dunbar, Sdao, or Aloff?  What's wrong with being educated?

Because the mods have determined that certain people can't behave and civilly discuss methods that include CM.  Those certain people do spoil it for the rest of us that want to be educated.  We, that want to be educated have to come up with different ways to aquire that knowledge.
 
The time value of the mod to moderate the discussion is greater than the value/benefit of the public education.

[blockquote]

[blockquote]quote:

I have an acquaintance who has an apparently normal, happy, well adjusted Yorkshire Terrier.  This person still believes the best way to house train a dog s to rub his nose in his own mess when he does it indoors.  Now some people may think I'm being emotive and wishy wash here but that IS barbaric.  Yet the dog seems happy now.  So does that mean the training method she used was a good one?  Personally I think treatment like that is cruel, unnecessary and definately NOT "ok".  The fact that the dog is happy is not a testament to her method of training or communicating with her dog or her level of success.  It's a testament to how forgiving dogs can be.  Some people will say of a training method "Well if it works and the dog seems happy, wheres the harm?"  My answer is, I believe there is a better way and dogs deserve better.[/blockquote]

I have a friend of a friend of a friend, who say's their uncles, sisters, moms, brother who beats their dog and the dog *seems* happy. How without seeing the dog for ourselves are we suposed to believe the dog is happy. Anyone can *claim* that. Seeing it for ourselves is totally different. I know dogs who are spoiled, and to their *owners* they seem happy, but that wasn't the case. I will agree, it's IMO not something someone should do though.



[blockquote]quote:

Now before anyone firebombs my house, I am NOT suggesting CM has EVER done this or advised anyone to do it.  He hasn't.  Nor am I suggesting ANYTHING he has done is as bad as this - it's not, not by miles.  What I'm saying is, if that Yorkie can still manage to be happy with his owner, CMs pack should have no worries!  I'm using this (true) story to illustrate why we can't take the pack as being happy as a thumbs up for CMs method.  If someone comes along and says they don't think CMs method is very dog friendly (now me, sometimes I think it is and sometimes it isn't), I do not think it is relevant to point to his happy pack to disprove that.[/blockquote]


While I can see with my own eyes, he's has a happy pack, again we don't know if your friends dog is actually happy. Perhaps your just missing the signs of a dog who's not as happy as you think. Who's owner doesn't IMO know what they're doing. Yes some dogs are very forgiving, but there's always signs of mistreatment. Dogs don't lie.

[/blockquote]

I'm going to break my resolution now and respond to this because I can't pass up the chance for at least one exchange on on a contraversial subject that manages to stay civil.  Just to clarify, I know this person and her dog quite well and see them regularly because they are a friend of the family who lives nearby.  I used the term "acquaintance" rather than "friend" because I don't class anyone who abuses animals this way as a personal "friend". 

The best I can do is offer an honest evaluation and you'll have to take my word for it or not as it pleases you.  Of course I might be missing something, I am not infallible.  While I don't consider myself an expert on dogs, I don't consider myself a novice either.  Other people will just have to read my posts to make up their own mind just how knowledgeable they think I am and whether what I think of this dog is worth anything.  I should add that the Yorkie is a particularly robust breed.  He is not a lap dog, he is a terrier  and as such is game and hardy.  The yorkie in question is typical of this.  And I have not suggested dogs lie - there is a difference in lying and forgiving.  Perhaps this is yet another area where we will have to agree to disagree.  You can be as skeptical of me as you like, but please try not to take up more than one post in saying so!!!!

As for the fact that there are some things viewers can take away from the show safely, agreed 100%.  Treating a dog like a dog and not a child for a start.  Adequate exercise.  Setting rules.  Being calm and assertive - a wonderful phrase that cannot be overused.  Being a leader - although here there are areas where I disagree with CMs way of achieving this.  Where he brings to people's attention these things at the end of the show, I think it would be wise and valuable to also bring to people's attention the parts that carried risk and needed to be done properly with the aid of a professional to minimise harm to the dog or danger to the owner or others around them.  That would be more balanced if you see what I mean.  I haven't seen every show, so maybe he has done this and I haven't seen it., feel free to correct me at any time (just no Tsssting please)
 
Edited to add:
 

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

NILIF in opnion is about "controlling" resources not "earning" them.  The earning them part is +R piece that makes it work so well.

 
Oh dear breaking another resolution, but couldn't resist......  it stands for Nothing In Life Is Free - which I would interpret that they have to earn everything good in life.  Sorry if someone already said that and I missed it.
 
Lastly: 
 

  Well now that you put it that way I understand...  man.. what a frightening scenario you've thought up  there..  Cesar's actions could have a ripple affect that could cause a tear in the space-time continuum and destroy reality as we know it.

 
Sorry to pick on you personally Trevell but this is just ONE example of unnecessary sarcasm that sours the discussion for everyone and both "sides" are guilty of it at times..... And that's why I'm not even coming back to read this thread anymore, let alone post on it, it just puts me off.  Shame, because it was a really good discussion at one point.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
This really bothers me, too.  Whether you like CM or not, he is not the only "dog behavior expert" in the world.  Why not discuss how his methods compare to Pryor, Koehler, Dunbar, Sdao, or Aloff?  What's wrong with being educated?

Why compare his methods to anyones? Comparing sometimes just seams to lead to, *well so and so does it this way which is better*. If people want to discuss the methods of other trainers, why not just a thread about them and invite people here to come over and here what they do and what you like about them.. And I believe one can't actually compare behavior work to obedience work sinse the two are not quite the same. I can't speak for all (and while I've read much of their stuff, others may not have) but I see nothing wrong with education. Also starting a thread on what they do may help you to spread the word to those that don't know what it is they do?

Also starting a thread on what they do may help you to spread the word to those that don't know what it is they do?

 
Wonderful idea.[]
 
That way certain members wouldn't have to discredit CM's methods on a regular basis, just because they believe in different training methods. That IMO, would solve a lot of bickering.[]
 

ORIGINAL: DPU
Because the mods have determined that certain people can't behave and civilly discuss methods that include CM.  Those certain people do spoil it for the rest of us that want to be educated.  We, that want to be educated have to come up with different ways to aquire that knowledge.

Or have the Mods determined that certain members can't discuss him without bashing (which is why this area in the first place)? Those certain people do spoil it for the rest of us that want to be educated. Those who "really" want to be educated will have to understand how difficult the bashes, make it to share information.

ORIGINAL: snownose

Also starting a thread on what they do may help you to spread the word to those that don't know what it is they do?

Wonderful idea.[]



That way certain members wouldn't have to discredit CM's methods on a regular basis, just because they believe in different training methods. That IMO, would solve a lot of bickering.[]

I sure you meant *try* miserably to discredit CM's methods and failing to do so.[]

ORIGINAL: Chuffy


I'm going to break my resolution now and respond to this because I can't pass up the chance for at least one exchange on on a contraversial subject that manages to stay civil.  Just to clarify, I know this person and her dog quite well and see them regularly because they are a friend of the family who lives nearby.  I used the term "acquaintance" rather than "friend" because I don't class anyone who abuses animals this way as a personal "friend".

Ok, but that still doesn't mean you're correct as to the true measure of the dogs happiness. And we certainly don't.

The best I can do is offer an honest evaluation and you'll have to take my word for it or not as it pleases you.  Of course I might be missing something, I am not infallible.  While I don't consider myself an expert on dogs, I don't consider myself a novice either.  Other people will just have to read my posts to make up their own mind just how knowledgeable they think I am and whether what I think of this dog is worth anything.

Well, first off I don't just take anyones word for anything. That's doesn't mean your wrong though. I'm not questioning your knowledge, I don't know what your knowledge is, and even knowledgeable people can miss signs. your opinion is yours, that makes it just as worth the next person.

I should add that the Yorkie is a particularly robust breed.  He is not a lap dog, he is a terrier  and as such is game and hardy.  The yorkie in question is typical of this.

I've also been told yorkies are big barkers, only to see with the right training and dealing with their needs as a dog, their no different than any other dog. For the most part dogs are dogs. then there's the purpose of why they were bread, hunting, gaurding, walking long distances, pulling and so on.

And I have not suggested dogs lie - there is a difference in lying and forgiving.  Perhaps this is yet another area where we will have to agree to disagree.  You can be as skeptical of me as you like, but please try not to take up more than one post in saying so!!!!

While dogs forgive, they don't lie about who they are and how they feel. But one can still miss signs of stress even in a dog that seams happy, if they don't know what the signs are, or how to spot them. that's all I'm saying. I'm not sure your allowed to disagree with me. jk[] LOL Ok, I won't.

As for the fact that there are some things viewers can take away from the show safely, agreed 100%.  Treating a dog like a dog and not a child for a start.  Adequate exercise.  Setting rules.  Being calm and assertive - a wonderful phrase that cannot be overused.

Agreed.

Being a leader - although here there are areas where I disagree with CMs way of achieving this.  Where he brings to people's attention these things at the end of the show, I think it would be wise and valuable to also bring to people's attention the parts that carried risk and needed to be done properly with the aid of a professional to minimise harm to the dog or danger to the owner or others around them.  That would be more balanced if you see what I mean.  I haven't seen every show, so maybe he has done this and I haven't seen it., feel free to correct me at any time (just no Tsssting please)

That's why there's a disclaimer on the  show. And let me just point out, he could spend hours pointing out what people should or shouldn't try, but you know people,  and it will never be enough. But I understand where your coming from.

Sorry to pick on you personally Trevell but this is just ONE example of unnecessary sarcasm that sours the discussion for everyone and both "sides" are guilty of it at times..... And that's why I'm not even coming back to read this thread anymore, let alone post on it, it just puts me off.  Shame, because it was a really good discussion at one point.

Don't go away, just take what you want and can use and ignore what you don't. My hope is we can all discuss these things, and people will perhaps calm down as time goes by.

Well, again, I think you are seeing a bash toward Ceasar that isn't really there.  In my post, I said "Well I think the danger is not within Ceasar but people themselves".

I have said absolutely nothing condeming Ceasar in these 2 posts, yet you perceived one  of my posts as calling Ceasar "sneaky" and now he is destroying reality.

My post had nothing to do with "Ceasars actions" but the actions of others.

ORIGINAL: Trevell

Well now that you put it that way I understand...  man.. what a frightening scenario you've thought up  there..  Cesar's actions could have a ripple affect that could cause a tear in the space-time continuum and destroy reality as we know it.

ORIGINAL: JM

Well, again, I think you are seeing a bash toward Ceasar that isn't really there.  In my post, I said "Well I think the danger is not within Ceasar but people themselves".

I have said absolutely nothing condeming Ceasar in these 2 posts, yet you perceived one  of my posts as calling Ceasar "sneaky" and now he is destroying reality.

My post had nothing to do with "Ceasars actions" but the actions of others.

ORIGINAL: Trevell

Well now that you put it that way I understand...  man.. what a frightening scenario you've thought up  there..  Cesar's actions could have a ripple affect that could cause a tear in the space-time continuum and destroy reality as we know it.

I understood what you were going for in your posts and I didn't really take them as a direct bash on Cesar.  I just thought you were digging a bit with that last scenario.

No man, I swear I wasn't.  It is truthfully going on.  I kid you not.  I would not lie about such a thing.

Here is the way it is going....I am 46.  I have owned a dog, probably all but 10 years out of all of those years.  In those 30 some odd years, I have only had 3 dogs,(not simutaneously) all being large breeds.  And I have pretty much trained them (with help from trainers of course) 

Therefore, I am a trainer, specializing in large breeds,  and 36 years of experience "with dogs".

Not really.  But you get the gist of what I am saying.

ORIGINAL: Trevell



I understood what you were going for in your posts and I didn't really take them as a direct bash on Cesar.  I just thought you were digging a bit with that last scenario.

ORIGINAL: JM

No man, I swear I wasn't.  It is truthfully going on.  I kid you not.  I would not lie about such a thing.

Here is the way it is going....I am 46.  I have owned a dog, probably all but 10 years out of all of those years.  In those 30 some odd years, I have only had 3 dogs,(not simutaneously) all being large breeds.  And I have pretty much trained them (with help from trainers of course) 

Therefore, I am a trainer, specializing in large breeds,  and 36 years of experience "with dogs".

Not really.  But you get the gist of what I am saying.

No, just because you have had 3 dogs over 36 years, does not make you anything. Driving a car, and owning several that you tinker around on, doesn't make you a mechanic. Studying, learning, working, and making something your lifes work does. Now if you started working on cars in your dads shop, tearing them down biulding and fixing them, learning all the ends and and outs, staying up with everything you need to know to fix a car over 36 years, I'd say you know something of which you speak, infact you could actually be consider a expert  in some situations.  Other than that, you just a car owner.

There ya go.  That is exactly what I am saying.  Glad to see we agree on something.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: JM

No man, I swear I wasn't.  It is truthfully going on.  I kid you not.  I would not lie about such a thing.

Here is the way it is going....I am 46.  I have owned a dog, probably all but 10 years out of all of those years.  In those 30 some odd years, I have only had 3 dogs,(not simutaneously) all being large breeds.  And I have pretty much trained them (with help from trainers of course) 

Therefore, I am a trainer, specializing in large breeds,  and 36 years of experience "with dogs".

Not really.  But you get the gist of what I am saying.

No, just because you have had 3 dogs over 36 years, does not make you anything. Driving a car, and owning several that you tinker around on, doesn't make you a mechanic. Studying, learning, working, and making something your lifes work does. Now if you started working on cars in your dads shop, tearing them down biulding and fixing them, learning all the ends and and outs, staying up with everything you need to know to fix a car over 36 years, I'd say you know something of which you speak, infact you could actually be consider a expert  in some situations.  Other than that, you just a car owner.

How Cesar got his start:  Cesar's Way  Chapter 1 Growing Up with Dogs;  subsection:  Word of Mouth pg 48.  Paraphrasing of what is stated in the book:
 
Major shift in the business aspect of his personal training occurred following referrals from a gentleman who had hired him to wash the limos in his business.  This gentleman was well connected and made frequent off hand referrals to friends and clients:  "I've got this great Mexican guy who's amazing with dogs.  Just bring 'em over."    These dogs formed part of the original nucleus of clients for Pacific Point K9 Academy which he had started.  He then goes on to state:
 
In 1994 he was working with a client's dog and Jada Pinkett Smith came for assistance dealing with her dogs, two new rehomes from a friend.  Out of that referral came a mentorship that included instruction in English, business advice and support about contracts and the media and lots of referrals to high visability. famous people; which in turn lead to the media deals which expanded into NG program.
 
Actually, I found the book very fascinating and find him to be quite impressive with respect to his reports of his personal training and search for information.  He appears to be incredibly well read and well rounded from this book.  Although I still have reservations about some of his strategies as presented in the media, the man does have some valuable information.  As do Prior, and Dunbar, and McConnel, and Turner, and Skinner etc. 
 
I found the book to be a good read and I do believe some of his ideas and examples will be helpful in what I do with people with whom I provide the monitoring of their performance and feedback about their training on a weekly basis.  Still have trouble with the fact some folks could easily be hurt or dog be hurt if the techniques are tried.  The disclaimer is not adequate to inhibit behavior on the part of some individuals.