How can this be?

NILIF in opnion is about "controlling" resources not "earning" them.  The earning them part is +R piece that makes it work so well.

I think it may have a lot to do with perception also.  Another of my perceptions concerning NILIF is that it allows the dog to be part of the decision making process.

 Like hmmmm...do I want out of this gate enough to sit and stay until released?  (thinking) 

Yes. I think I do. (still thinking,)

 Yes.  I am sure that I do.    

Decision made.

 

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

NILIF in opnion is about "controlling" resources not "earning" them.  The earning them part is +R piece that makes it work so well.

First, I might just be being Mrs Pinickety Wicket here, so if I am then tell me and I'll shut up...... Does anyone else here have an issue with "spamming" or is it just me? 

I'm going to respond directly to the OP and for the most part ignore where the debate has branched out since or I'll be here all day.  Other posters have already covered points like "we see a happy pack because to show an unhappy one would be shoddy marketing", "he doesn't deal with the dogs on a daily basis, he has kennel staff etc."  So I'm only going to add what I *think* has been missed so far.

I have an acquaintance who has an apparently normal, happy, well adjusted Yorkshire Terrier.  This person still believes the best way to house train a dog s to rub his nose in his own mess when he does it indoors.  Now some people may think I'm being emotive and wishy wash here but that IS barbaric.  Yet the dog seems happy now.  So does that mean the training method she used was a good one?  Personally I think treatment like that is cruel, unnecessary and definately NOT "ok".  The fact that the dog is happy is not a testament to her method of training or communicating with her dog or her level of success.  It's a testament to how forgiving dogs can be.  Some people will say of a training method "Well if it works and the dog seems happy, wheres the harm?"  My answer is, I believe there is a better way and dogs deserve better.

Now before anyone firebombs my house, I am NOT suggesting CM has EVER done this or advised anyone to do it.  He hasn't.  Nor am I suggesting ANYTHING he has done is as bad as this - it's not, not by miles.  What I'm saying is, if that Yorkie can still manage to be happy with his owner, CMs pack should have no worries!  I'm using this (true) story to illustrate why we can't take the pack as being happy as a thumbs up for CMs method.  If someone comes along and says they don't think CMs method is very dog friendly (now me, sometimes I think it is and sometimes it isn't), I do not think it is relevant to point to his happy pack to disprove that.

Just to clarify, there are parts of CMs philosophy I agree with whole heartedly and I don't disagree with all his methods - just some.  Die hard CM fans should remember that dislike of a particular technique does not mean dislike of the person or of their whole philosophy or methodology.  Nothing and no one is infallible - it is normal to disagree with a trainer sometimes, it doesn't mean you hate them or you are "bashing" them.  I have enormous respect for spiritdogs gor instance - but we don't agree on every subject.  Frankly, the opposite is more abnormal - to agree to everything a trainer does or suggests.  Opposition to methods does not constitute ignorance/jealousy/misunderstanding.

No matter where you stand on the CM debate we all agree that his methods are NOT safe to be replicated by people watching the show.  That's why there are disclaimers telling you not to and why they tell you to seek the help of a professional.  Now I know  a few people here have said they have  tried some of CMs methods and they've worked great or they got a friends dog to stop doing such and such in X amount of time, friend was astounded.  Hmmm... worrying.

I'm not even dipping my toe in the NILIF pool because I think that's OT and deserves a thread of it's own in one of the more general forums.  Sorry it's long, but on the upside I don't intend to post on this one again!

Well now that you mention it....at the end of the show Ceasar will talk to the audience and go through the points of..."excercise, discipline, then affection, and you too can become a calm and assertive pack leader"

Of course he doesn't come right out and say to use his techniques, be he is implying that by copying his methods, you too can become the next Dog Whisperer.

And maybe that is the ideal that folks find attractive.  A few yanks, a few chht's, and I can be just like him.

Yeah, he sure is sneaky.  The nerve of Cesar giving people advice on living with their dogs.

  luvmyswissy

That was, PERFECT!!!

Well I think the danger is not within Ceasar but people themselves. I don't consider Ceasar to be "sneaky".  That was your word, not mine.

 The scenario is as follows:  someone watches his show regurlarly. 

Soon they start with Mom's dog, then Granny's, then the neighbors. 

Maybe eventually pick up a client here and there that mom, granny or neighbor knows, and walk their dog and practice some more. Give the advice of  staying "calm and assertive" and projecting the proper energy and such.

Well, seeings how they have been around Granny's dog since they were 10, got a bit of experience with "clients" they are now a professional trainer with 15 years experience.

  I am seeing this a lot on forums.  People are coming out of the wood work defending CM and saying they are professional trainers all the while not being able to discuss other trainers and theories.

ORIGINAL: Trevell

Yeah, he sure is sneaky.  The nerve of Cesar giving people advice on living with their dogs.

ORIGINAL: JM

I am seeing this a lot on forums.  People are coming out of the wood work defending CM and saying they are professional trainers all the while not being able to discuss other trainers and theories.

 
And the other shoe drops with a resounding thud.
 

Maybe I should insert your last quote to Houndlove?


What is this weird thing that you have for following me around and taking everything I write personally?

ORIGINAL: Angelique

ORIGINAL: JM

I am seeing this a lot on forums.  People are coming out of the wood work defending CM and saying they are professional trainers all the while not being able to discuss other trainers and theories.

And the other shoe drops with a resounding thud.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: JM


Do you...

why don't you find someone alse to stalk.

 
Doh! [8D]

ORIGINAL: JM

Well I think the danger is not within Ceasar but people themselves. I don't consider Ceasar to be "sneaky".  That was your word, not mine.

The scenario is as follows:  someone watches his show regurlarly. 

Soon they start with Mom's dog, then Granny's, then the neighbors. 

Maybe eventually pick up a client here and there that mom, granny or neighbor knows, and walk their dog and practice some more. Give the advice of  staying "calm and assertive" and projecting the proper energy and such.

Well, seeings how they have been around Granny's dog since they were 10, got a bit of experience with "clients" they are now a professional trainer with 15 years experience.

I am seeing this a lot on forums.  People are coming out of the wood work defending CM and saying they are professional trainers all the while not being able to discuss other trainers and theories.

Your right about one thing, anyone can claim to be a dog trainer. Just as anyone can come on to this forum and pretend to be here to share and get info, when their real intent is to do nothing more than pic fights, start arguements, and put people down using snide undertones. By the way (and how you missed this is beyond me) this is a part of the forum so people can discuss Cesar. Oh, you didn't miss it, your just here toooo?

Notice how *luvmyswissy* made a point without any bs? You should take note. My guess is, the admins and mods have their eye on you. Transparent as glass dude.

Doh!

Double post.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

First, I might just be being Mrs Pinickety Wicket here, so if I am then tell me and I'll shut up...... Does anyone else here have an issue with "spamming" or is it just me?

Spamming? LOL Some times when reading post we not only know what the poster is saying, we don't even know who they're saying it too. Sorry but I like to be very clear and touch on each point.

I'm going to respond directly to the OP and for the most part ignore where the debate has branched out since or I'll be here all day.  Other posters have already covered points like "we see a happy pack because to show an unhappy one would be shoddy marketing", "he doesn't deal with the dogs on a daily basis, he has kennel staff etc."  So I'm only going to add what I *think* has been missed so far.

LOL Yeah, that's it, he gets 20 to 30 dogs to all *act* happy for the cameras. Priceless. And! I guess he actually is the worlds best trainer, even if he says he's not. Bahahahahaha I needed a good laugh, thanks. As far as what you "think" perhaps you should think about how it is you know weather or not he "he doesn't deal with the dogs on a daily basis" or not.

I have an acquaintance who has an apparently normal, happy, well adjusted Yorkshire Terrier.  This person still believes the best way to house train a dog s to rub his nose in his own mess when he does it indoors.  Now some people may think I'm being emotive and wishy wash here but that IS barbaric.  Yet the dog seems happy now.  So does that mean the training method she used was a good one?  Personally I think treatment like that is cruel, unnecessary and definately NOT "ok".  The fact that the dog is happy is not a testament to her method of training or communicating with her dog or her level of success.  It's a testament to how forgiving dogs can be.  Some people will say of a training method "Well if it works and the dog seems happy, wheres the harm?"  My answer is, I believe there is a better way and dogs deserve better.

I have a friend of a friend of a friend, who say's their uncles, sisters, moms, brother who beats their dog and the dog *seems* happy. How without seeing the dog for ourselves are we suposed to believe the dog is happy. Anyone can *claim* that. Seeing it for ourselves is totally different. I know dogs who are spoiled, and to their *owners* they seem happy, but that wasn't the case. I will agree, it's IMO not something someone should do though.

Now before anyone firebombs my house, I am NOT suggesting CM has EVER done this or advised anyone to do it.  He hasn't.  Nor am I suggesting ANYTHING he has done is as bad as this - it's not, not by miles.  What I'm saying is, if that Yorkie can still manage to be happy with his owner, CMs pack should have no worries!  I'm using this (true) story to illustrate why we can't take the pack as being happy as a thumbs up for CMs method.  If someone comes along and says they don't think CMs method is very dog friendly (now me, sometimes I think it is and sometimes it isn't), I do not think it is relevant to point to his happy pack to disprove that.

While I can see with my own eyes, he's has a happy pack, again we don't know if your friends dog is actually happy. Perhaps your just missing the signs of a dog who's not as happy as you think. Who's owner doesn't IMO know what they're doing. Yes some dogs are very forgiving, but there's always signs of mistreatment. Dogs don't lie.

Just to clarify, there are parts of CMs philosophy I agree with whole heartedly and I don't disagree with all his methods - just some.  Die hard CM fans should remember that dislike of a particular technique does not mean dislike of the person or of their whole philosophy or methodology.  Nothing and no one is infallible - it is normal to disagree with a trainer sometimes, it doesn't mean you hate them or you are "bashing" them.  I have enormous respect for spiritdogs gor instance - but we don't agree on every subject.  Frankly, the opposite is more abnormal - to agree to everything a trainer does or suggests.  Opposition to methods does not constitute ignorance/jealousy/misunderstanding.

This part of your post, BRILLIANT! And I'm being serious.

No matter where you stand on the CM debate we all agree that his methods are NOT safe to be replicated by people watching the show.  That's why there are disclaimers telling you not to and why they tell you to seek the help of a professional.  Now I know  a few people here have said they have  tried some of CMs methods and they've worked great or they got a friends dog to stop doing such and such in X amount of time, friend was astounded.  Hmmm... worrying.

Agreed, it's one reason I will not tell someone how to correct a dog over the internet. However, somethings are fine to try, on ones own. A reasonable person should have no problem pointing at their dog with a firm Tssst. I think they'll be fine.

I'm not even dipping my toe in the NILIF pool because I think that's OT and deserves a thread of it's own in one of the more general forums.  Sorry it's long, but on the upside I don't intend to post on this one again!

Ok.

ORIGINAL: JM

Well I think the danger is not within Ceasar but people themselves. I don't consider Ceasar to be "sneaky".  That was your word, not mine.

The scenario is as follows:  someone watches his show regurlarly. 

Soon they start with Mom's dog, then Granny's, then the neighbors. 

Maybe eventually pick up a client here and there that mom, granny or neighbor knows, and walk their dog and practice some more. Give the advice of  staying "calm and assertive" and projecting the proper energy and such.

Well, seeings how they have been around Granny's dog since they were 10, got a bit of experience with "clients" they are now a professional trainer with 15 years experience.

I am seeing this a lot on forums.  People are coming out of the wood work defending CM and saying they are professional trainers all the while not being able to discuss other trainers and theories.

ORIGINAL: Trevell

Yeah, he sure is sneaky.  The nerve of Cesar giving people advice on living with their dogs.

Well now that you put it that way I understand...  man.. what a frightening scenario you've thought up  there..  Cesar's actions could have a ripple affect that could cause a tear in the space-time continuum and destroy reality as we know it.