How can this be?

It may or may not explain that feeling, but I've actually seen a lot of things bundled into NILIF that really surprised me and aren't really part of what I'd always considered a NILIF program. I'm actually trying to remember specifics right now but there were a few things that someone recomended on another forum (and provided a web link to someone's website) as part of NILIF that I kind of went, "Huh? Since when?"

Since no one really has a copyright on NILIF, anyone can post a website and say "This is a NILIF program" and describe something quite different from someone else writing about the same thing. It definatley has the potential to be a glass half empty/ half full situation-- I see NILIF as the opportunity to do great stuff for my dogs, as long as they work for me. But it could easily be interperated (and implemented) as an excuse (or a command) to ignore your dog.

As far as the apple and oranges thing I think behavior is behavior, what I'm comparing is human behavior to animal behavior.  Both very similar to one another, we are both mammals are we not? Where does behaviorist begin, in a psychology class and then branch out from there. So why can#%92t I compare Dr. Phil to CM both clam to deal with the emotions of the subject.  I was trying to use analogies that seem to have some connection.  Mainly stating that everything we see on TV should not be practiced at home.
 
If I have psychological problems I seek a person who when to school for those years to get help.  Same with my dog, if she needs that kind of help to better understand her I#%92d much rather prefer to take her to an expert.  My knowledge comes from those who have already accomplished what I#%92m trying to achieve.  If I wanted to be a famous TV dog trainer I would follow CM, if I wanted to have a healthy dog with good temperament I would go to a person I can connect with on a personal level that can she me how.  This is a personal preference you do what suits you best and I do what I like.
 
Now some people can do just fine watching TV and that makes them feel good about themselves and perhaps CMs words do the same for some dog owners.  The problem I see is when people look at him as some sort of miracle worker and an easy way to explain a complicated matter.
 
I would say I#%92m borderline on where I stand on the CM issues, probably leaning more toward those who don#%92t agree with who he is but I#%92m still open to hearing what all have to say.  I am often wrong and so are many others but I want to hear they whys and reform my thoughts so that they make sense.  I do enjoy seeing my thoughts sliced apart.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl


Personally, I am always influenced most by his empahsis of the handler's state of mind. That is really what helps me most with my dog's on a day to day basis.

Did you catch that Xebby, something was learned by watching a show and getting imformation. Now how did that happen.?[]

 
I don't think you can't learn something from watching TV but I don't think TV should be your main sorce of knowlage.  CM didn't say thats is how you should do thing but was mearly a suggestion that helped kick off a new way of viewing thing.  Now you can form your own thought on how you want to carrie out the ideas and gather information from other sorces as well. 

ORIGINAL: Xebby


What I've been trying to get at I'm my last few post is that there is too much emphasis in his methods and not enough in what he has done for the dog community.  Seems like too many are using him as a "magic" fix for their dog's problems and an excuse not to seek a professional trainer.  Thats what has me really torn on my openion about the guy.

I've heard this before, but where is the evidence?   You make it sound as if it's a nationwide epidemic.  Stupid people will do stupid things to dogs regardless of what's out there.   Always have, always will.  I just don't see how The Dog Whisperer could add to ignorance in any way.

I've heard this before, but where is the evidence?   You make it sound as if it's a nationwide epidemic.  Stupid people will do stupid things to dogs regardless of what's out there.   Always have, always will.  I just don't see how The Dog Whisperer could add to ignorance in any way.

True, true, stupid people will be stupid but give one of thoes people an excuse to try something that is harmful to thier dog if used incorrectly and suddenly you make the problem worse.  Perhaps it doesn't have an impact on all but the few it does is kinda scary.

Evidence-none, everything I have to say on this issue if purly my openion and you can agree or dissagree if you choose to.  Isn't that what the OP asked?

Perhaps the answer will clear some things up for those of us who don't understand you stance on this.

 
I'm just trying to explain myself and how I feel about these issuse so I can get them orginzed in my mind.

ORIGINAL: Xebby


I don't think you can't learn something from watching TV but I don't think TV should be your main sorce of knowlage.  CM didn't say thats is how you should do thing but was mearly a suggestion that helped kick off a new way of viewing thing.  Now you can form your own thought on how you want to carrie out the ideas and gather information from other sorces as well. 

That's exactly how I experience and approach watching the show.

ORIGINAL: Xebby

As far as the apple and oranges thing I think behavior is behavior, what I'm comparing is human behavior to animal behavior.  Both very similar to one another, we are both mammals are we not? Where does behaviorist begin, in a psychology class and then branch out from there. So why can't I compare Dr. Phil to CM both clam to deal with the emotions of the subject.  I was trying to use analogies that seem to have some connection.

Because we're not dogs, I feel nothing like a dog, nor do I believe a dog feels like me. That doesn't mean I don't think dogs have feelings, What a dog can't do because it is specifically inherent to humans, is thing in the third person. In other words, step outside themself and ponder over, *why* they feel they way they do. they simply feel the way they do.

Mainly stating that everything we see on TV should not be practiced at home.

I think reading your post you went way beyond that statement. I also already stated my opinion there.

If I have psychological problems I seek a person who when to school for those years to get help.  Same with my dog, if she needs that kind of help to better understand her I'd much rather prefer to take her to an expert.

Cesar is a expert.

My knowledge comes from those who have already accomplished what I'm trying to achieve.

And he has much knowlege you haven't achieved. It's is your right to ignore or dislike it though.

If I wanted to be a famous TV dog trainer I would follow CM, if I wanted to have a healthy dog with good temperament I would go to a person I can connect with on a personal level that can she me how.  This is a personal preference you do what suits you best and I do what I like.

And those who work with Cesar get "a healthy dog with good temperament", they don't become "a famous TV dog trainer". Which seems to be your real point here  (just as I actually understood the point you were trying to make in your earlier post. And I agree, one should always do what works best for them.

Now some people can do just fine watching TV and that makes them feel good about themselves and perhaps CMs words do the same for some dog owners.  The problem I see is when people look at him as some sort of miracle worker and an easy way to explain a complicated matter.

I know, but that's what we've tried over and over and over again to say, that's not his fault!!! People should use common sense when watching TV, and quit blaming others for their own ignorance. People should point that finger where it belongs.

I would say I'm borderline on where I stand on the CM issues, probably leaning more toward those who don't agree with who he is but I'm still open to hearing what all have to say.  I am often wrong and so are many others but I want to hear they whys and reform my thoughts so that they make sense.  I do enjoy seeing my thoughts sliced apart.

LOL Glad I can help you out. And! that shows you have a sense of humor even through my slicing. LOL All of what I just stated is *only my opinion* based on my experiences working with dogs. you do what's best for you and good luck.

ORIGINAL: Xebby



I don't think you can't learn something from watching TV but I don't think TV should be your main sorce of knowlage.  CM didn't say thats is how you should do thing but was mearly a suggestion that helped kick off a new way of viewing thing.  Now you can form your own thought on how you want to carrie out the ideas and gather information from other sorces as well. 

Agreed! And yes I can and do. Good post.

ORIGINAL: Xebby

I've heard this before, but where is the evidence?   You make it sound as if it's a nationwide epidemic.  Stupid people will do stupid things to dogs regardless of what's out there.   Always have, always will.  I just don't see how The Dog Whisperer could add to ignorance in any way.

True, true, stupid people will be stupid but give one of thoes people an excuse to try something that is harmful to thier dog if used incorrectly and suddenly you make the problem worse.  Perhaps it doesn't have an impact on all but the few it does is kinda scary.

Ok, but would you agree that we shouldn't stop the sharing of knowledge becuase of what some of the ignorant will do. Then there would be no learning, anything. now that's scary.

In response to Awsomedog:
 
Well, I'm at a point where I really have no more to say about the matter, simply because it will never end.  I will continue to think as I do and you will think as you do.  I have to compliment you on how strong you are to stick to your subject and keep it at a intellectual level without the member bashing.  The very name of this man seems to bring out the best, and worst in many of us.
[]

ORIGINAL: Xebby

True, true, stupid people will be stupid but give one of thoes people an excuse to try something that is harmful to thier dog if used incorrectly and suddenly you make the problem worse.  Perhaps it doesn't have an impact on all but the few it does is kinda scary.

Those type of people probably don't really need much of an excuse anyway.  This comes down to something that Angleique brought up in the Alpha Roll thread:

"We are wise, and other people are stupid, so we must control what tools they can use, breeds they can own, methods and philosophies they have access to, and stifle all accurate knowlege in it's proper use and application" argument.

The way I see it is CM is not a professional behaviorist…  He did not go to college and get a degree that proves him worthy to practice in that field.

 
There is no such thing as a professional behaviorist when it comes to dogs specifically.  There are certifications and courses of study given by who knows who on the internet and some dog training schools offer certifications as well if you apprentice with them.  Even Awesome dog could offer a behaviorist certification to someone if he wishes to.
 
As for Animal behavior - most scientists directly involved in animal behavior are found within two disciplines: Ethology and comparative psychology. These disciplines overlap greatly in their goals, interests, and methods. Ethologists usually are trained in departments of biology, zoology, entomology, wildlife, or other animal sciences, whereas most comparative psychologists are trained in psychology departments. Some jobs in animal behavior require only a bachelor of Arts or a bachelor or Science degree. However, most careers in animal behavior require advanced degrees, sometimes a Master of Arts or of Science (M.A., M.S.) but usually a Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) or Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (D.V.M.).  And I think we can all agree that most Veterinarians know little when it comes to dog training and psychology – even the +R people have stated that over and again.  Cesar proved that on one of his own episodes as well.   
 
I work with a guy whose father is a Zoologist at the Bronx Zoo in New York and he will tell you himself he knows nothing when it comes to dog training and he loves to watch Cesar!  What does that tell you.
 
And for myself, my degree has nothing to do with what I do for a living, but I am better at my job after 30 years than anyone straight out of school.  Experience is very often more important than the paper education.

Like removing food after 20 minutes?

 I brought that up on the board one time because I wasn't comfortable with it and people were wondering where I got such an ideal.

So yeah, I can see it happening.

Personally I think it is good for a dog because it allows them to work.  I think it leads to self confidence.

Like hmmmm..how good am I?  I can get this door to open just by sitting.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

It may or may not explain that feeling, but I've actually seen a lot of things bundled into NILIF that really surprised me and aren't really part of what I'd always considered a NILIF program. I'm actually trying to remember specifics right now but there were a few things that someone recomended on another forum (and provided a web link to someone's website) as part of NILIF that I kind of went, "Huh? Since when?"

Since no one really has a copyright on NILIF, anyone can post a website and say "This is a NILIF program" and describe something quite different from someone else writing about the same thing. It definatley has the potential to be a glass half empty/ half full situation-- I see NILIF as the opportunity to do great stuff for my dogs, as long as they work for me. But it could easily be interperated (and implemented) as an excuse (or a command) to ignore your dog.

Mind sharing that part for the people here that don't have the book. Perhaps I missed it. Not that I actually care how he got started.

 
I read the book. The way Millan says he got started was first by observing village dogs on & around his relatives' farm when he was under 6yo. He then moved to the city and observed city dogs, which he felt were unstable - his family attempted to have indoor dog and with disastrous results. As a young adult he moved to the US and right away got a job at a grooming shop, bathing the dogs, etc. His coworkers usually left it to him to handle the big, powerful, and sometimes "problem" dogs since he seemed to have a natural ability to handle them. From there the progression is not as detailed but I believe he had people start asking him to handle their problem dogs and he parlayed these favors into a career.

I think I remember being told that a bunch of stuff that I consider to be "dominance display" typed things (not related to actually earning resources) were part of NILIF. And sure, you can call that NILIF, no one owns that name. I can call what I do NILIF as well and neither answer is "right." I'd always ask someone to clarify if they said that NILIF was having a detrimental affect on their dog, and ask just what, exactly are they doing as part of NILIF?