How can this be?

I might as well join in...here's me putting more logs onto the fire!

I don't disrespect CM at all.  I think he has done a great service to the dog community in general.  That said, I do not like the process with which he acheives his goals.  I don't think he's cruel to his dogs.  I don't think he's misunderstood by those of us that don't subscribe to his methods.

I do question the undying loyalty of his supporters who would, time and time again, defend his methods absolutely without ever trying a different approach.  I also question the validity of his methods as they are purported to be "one size fits all."  IOW not every dog has the same learning rate, emotional status or specific issues and not every instance of a dog "acting up" is related to pack structure or lack of leadership. 

Why does his pack seem to be happy and well behaved?  The key word is SEEM.  We don't know about any squabbles in his pack.  We don't know if there are status issues.  If we did would that mean the sky was falling for his diehard fans?  It shouldn't.  But if we were to learn of such things, that would make him more realistic in my eyes.  He isn't a god.  He's a good guy with a good heart with exceptional timing and great marketing.

I think some of his techniques can cause damage to certain dogs' psyches (flooding for an example) I also think that there are different approaches to solve every conundrum related to dog behavior.  What works for Gaia won't necessarily work for Xerxes, and what works for X won't necessarily work for G.  They have different backgrounds and different mindsets.  I can't train them both the same way-my approach has to be different. 

I have never watched a show, only clips from espencers favorite website.  Some of the things he demonstrated, to me, showed use of excessive force and brutality.  That's my opinion. 

Anything else I could say has already been said, quite eloquently by other posters.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I also question the validity of his methods as they are purported to be "one size fits all."  IOW not every dog has the same learning rate, emotional status or specific issues and not every instance of a dog "acting up" is related to pack structure or lack of leadership. 

I am confused, it seems you know what you are talking about him but right after you said:

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I have never watched a show

Dont you think is ironic? I am sure he spends more than the 10 minutes they show on TV asking questions to the owners and comes to a conclusion depending on the learning rate, emotional status or specific issues of the dog and then is when they start taping him, of course no one size fits all, and i have seen him doing a different technique when it seems to be the same problem

Now, talking to everybody here in general:

I can advice against using +R to treat some behavior problems, does that make +R bad? of course not, is just that i would do something different than that, have some of you try behaviorist techniques before or you are just assuming what would happen? if you picture it in your mind it will happen that way (good or bad), if you think the dog will bite you then he will, if you think behaviorist techniques wont help then they wont, but thats just you rising your own mental walls for failure

Can we have a dog laying down in a psychologist couch to tell us what does he thinks about flooding? of course not, how do we know is bad? we cant, we know it would be bad for a human, for sure if we throw to a pool a person afraid of water we will cause a mega trauma for life to that poor guy or girl, d-o-g-s   are   n-o-t   humans

Of course as the humans that we are (having this complicated brain) we start making assumptions right and left and over thinking up and down,  dogs have a more simple mind, after they realized there is nothing to worry about they just continue with their happy lifes, their trauma will last as long as you nurture it, no more no less

Do not think a dog reacts as a human would, "but i will loose his trust" (as some people say), did you loose your father's trust when he was teaching you that the dark is harmless? That's exacly what you are doing with your dog, teaching your dog there is nothing to worry about, he will be more glad that you "showed him the light" that loose his trust in you, he will be glad that you were there to help him go back to a calm state of mind, they will always thank you at the end

So lets stop over thinking everything, lets just think as a dog would, that is knowing that the owner is there for help to go back to a stable state of mind and not to make things worse []

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

He isn't a god. 

That's Zod. 

It's funny how people will state they don't disrespect or bash Cesar, and then in the same post attribute all his scucess to marketing and Oprah and good looks and appealing to the lowest common denominator.  And don't forget to add in the words barbaric, brutality, crank and yank, excessive force, etc..

ORIGINAL: Trevell 

It's funny how people will state they don't disrespect or bash Cesar, and then in the same post attribute all his scucess to marketing and Oprah and good looks and appealing to the lowest common denominator.  And don't forget to add in the words barbaric, brutality, crank and yank, excessive force, etc..

 
It's almost eeirie how these words, phrases, and jabs all start sounding the same, yet contain no real information which is the least productive to the conversation.
 
It is kind of fun counting all of the colorful emotionally inflamatory verbage in each post, too. Although finding any original material is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
 
Oooo, I counted four uses of the word "pain" in one anti-CM post alone just a minute ago! Score!
 
But, here I go being a big meanie again when people are only expessing their own personal opinions, based on the facts.
 
Tsk, tsk, tsk. []

ORIGINAL: eley

So lets add those two things together, I'm not bashing on CM's lack of formal education, but I do believe that had he gone thru the same process that McConnel, Clothier etc, he'd be one of them.

And if McConnel, Clothier, Dunbar and whoever had grown up on a ranch in Mexico and had the unique experience to observe farm dogs in a pack structure,  they'd be one of him!

I guess Jane Goodall's studies don't mean diddly-squat either because she has probably never "trained" a chimp in her life. Oh, but she did have an academic background...which she promptly blew out of the water with her own personal research.

My issues are primarily media based.  I find him quite fascinating and I can not deny his skills.  My concern is the ability of people to replicate his techniques without monitoring and feedback.  Face it people, that will occur.  People are creature who learn from modeling.  The modeling they see on television is considerably edited.  An unskilled person attempting some of his strategies will likely have no success and possibly make something worse. 
 
There is no doubt he is a sensation with powerful friends who launched him into the media.  I find him quite entertaining and thought provoking.  However, the disclaimer at the beginning of the show is not adequate to prevent harm,  So again, first do no harm.

ORIGINAL: houndlove
Positive does not mean permissive, how many times do you have to be told that?  Positive trainers have dogs who walk at heel and who follow the house rules. I train with treats because treats are what motivate my dogs. If they preferred playing fetch, I'd train with fetch. If they preferred tug, I'd train with tug (which, by the way, is how bomb-sniffing dogs are trained--they specifically only bring dogs into the program who have a game of tug as their end-all-be-all motivator and use that to teach the scenting tasks). I train with treats because it works. You can choose to believe that I'm lying, that my dogs are ill-behaved monsters who don't follow any rules. But you'd be wrong. They sit or down until released, even with a full bowl of food in front of them. They sit until released at the front door even if I hold it open and chat with a neighbor.

Won't change their minds even given evidence to the contrary, indeed.

Before I read any other post, I'll start here. I see nothing wrong with how you do you training, nothing. I always believe one should do what works for them (as long as it doesn't involve hurting a dog). I think it's great you've trained your dogs so well, and would never bash you for your training method. I've used some of these same methods when doing OBT. So I do understand your methods very well.

And if McConnel, Clothier, Dunbar and whoever had grown up on a ranch in Mexico and had the unique experience to observe farm dogs in a pack structure,  they'd be one of him!

Probably so, but, wouldn't we want these kind of people to, on top of their innate talent, have the benefit of all the knowledge of those who came before them? as in opossed to letting them start from ground zero.

I gues the equivalent would be someone learning medicine out of observation, no matter how smart and talented they are, they would never be able to catch up with where medicine is today, by comparison, if those same people USED the existing knowledge in their favor great things could happen.

I'm glad he's not "one of them".

May I ask why?

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

It seems some of the CM regulars spend a lot more time on this forum posting insults and raging about other members than discussing dogs!

I am trying to have a dicussion, it's just a little difficult to have with some of the CM bashers who are claiming my methods are abusive, and can't even back that statement up.

ORIGINAL: eley

So lets add those two things together, I'm not bashing on CM's lack of formal education, but I do believe that had he gone thru the same process that McConnel, Clothier etc, he'd be one of them. So, while C.M. has GREAT merit on figuring out a bunch of things on his own, what he figured out thru observation (and later added some of his own), he could've learned in a lot shorter amount of time (and therefore added HIS stuff sooner) had he gone thru the academic circus. And this would be because someone had already figured out things for him and he could pick up where the people that came before him left.

I'm going to comment on this part. First off ,besides what he learned through his own observations, no one knows what other studies he's done. Secondly while I know some really good trainers who went the "academic circus", I also know some who shouldn't be allowed to even pick up a leash, let alone touch a dog. I've seen first hand the horrible advise they give and the damage they've caused. I'm glad that I was able to learn the many different ways I did, and by some very tallented people. Being in a "comfort zone" has nothing to do with it, using what one knows works because they see it every day does. Myself, I'd rather use what I know works than what others claim works. But one should always use what works for them.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


I have no problem with immigration.  Except for my Mi'kmaq and Cree ancestors, all my relatives were born of immigrants, too.  My father's parents were both immigrants.  But, I do have a problem with illegal immigration.  And, I have a problem with claiming to be something you aren't.  If you read his book, it is repetitive and not very suggestive of any truly insightful or broad knowledge of dog behavior.  When you read Brenda Aloff's book, "Aggression in Dogs", for example, you at least feel that the author has a firm grasp of the subject matter.

It's easy to say that when you don't like him to begin with (I totally disagree with your view of the book, big shock I know, lol) and would rather promote those you do like.

Learned helplessness is less readily identifiable in dogs than in humans, but the effect is similar and the topic, perhaps, deserves a thread of its own.

Anyone who is claiming holding a attacking dog down until they become calm is "learned helplessness" in my opinion is simply going by their own human emotions and reactions, and needs to spent A LOT! more time studying and working with dogs. The term "learned helplessness" is just one more way for humans to "feel" better. And this way of thinking is giving us more unbalanced dogs ( short of like what we have with kids these days, because now parents are even afraid of using the word no). There is a certain simplicity in to dogs, sadly a fact that must humans don't get.

double post.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I might as well join in...here's me putting more logs onto the fire!

I don't disrespect CM at all.  I think he has done a great service to the dog community in general.  That said, I do not like the process with which he acheives his goals.  I don't think he's cruel to his dogs.  I don't think he's misunderstood by those of us that don't subscribe to his methods.

I think his methods are misunderstood by those who don't understand them.

I do question the undying loyalty of his supporters who would, time and time again, defend his methods absolutely without ever trying a different approach.  I also question the validity of his methods as they are purported to be "one size fits all."  IOW not every dog has the same learning rate, emotional status or specific issues and not every instance of a dog "acting up" is related to pack structure or lack of leadership.

You see, even you misundersand, he doesn't subscribe to "one size fits all"  and his approach is one of working with dog in front of him and what the dog is showing him.

Why does his pack seem to be happy and well behaved?  The key word is SEEM.  We don't know about any squabbles in his pack.  We don't know if there are status issues.  If we did would that mean the sky was falling for his diehard fans?  It shouldn't.  But if we were to learn of such things, that would make him more realistic in my eyes.  He isn't a god.  He's a good guy with a good heart with exceptional timing and great marketing.

Ok, I'm throwing out the term *seem*, does that help you. there's no question their happy.  And dogs are dogs, I expect them to have their differences at times. and i know the sky isn't falling. "He isn't a god." Really? That's good, I don't have time to learn spanish. lol

I think some of his techniques can cause damage to certain dogs' psyches (flooding for an example) I also think that there are different approaches to solve every conundrum related to dog behavior.  What works for Gaia won't necessarily work for Xerxes, and what works for X won't necessarily work for G.  They have different backgrounds and different mindsets.  I can't train them both the same way-my approach has to be different.

He's not training. And some of us call flooding, *real life*.

I have never watched a show, only clips from espencers favorite website.  Some of the things he demonstrated, to me, showed use of excessive force and brutality.  That's my opinion.

Doh! I'm sorry, I actually thought you were talking on something you had some knowlegde of, then I see this. Wow! Some people just kill me. And by all means please feel free to point out any one time he used Unreasonable "excessive force". And I would deafinately like to see this "brutality" of which you speak. Making the comments you have with such little knowledge of what your talking about is one of the main problems here.

ORIGINAL: mrv


There is no doubt he is a sensation with powerful friends who launched him into the media.

Actually I think that inaccurate. His real start came from his own idea of making a vidio tape and sending it to TNGC.