How can this be?

I can't really say much since I don't get the NG channel.
 
But I will say - what Cesar and anyone else on TV has is a show that depicts certain elements of reality. He has a successful, well-marketed TV program. What goes on when the cameras turned off, none of us here really know. How his pack is managed, what issues they have, who deals primarily with the dogs, etc - we don't know. He is obviously a successful and busy guy and it's not realistic to think that he manages the dogs day-to-day all the time. Who knows? What we see after the camera crews and editors and marketers have gone through his dogs' lives, is the same as what we see when 'Super Nanny' is done working with a family. It all looks perfect and wonderful. I don't know if any of Cesar's dogs have anxiety/fear/etc issues, and I don't think anyone here knows the answer to that either (unless you believe everything the marketing people throw out there).

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I can't even believe I'm having a go at this.

Cesar Millan is not the only person in the universe who rescues and rehabs troubled dogs, nor is he the only person to have a large group of dogs (though you do realize he has staff and a professional kennel facility, right?). No one is faulting him for doing rescue work or pit bull advocacy. It's great that he does that, but that should not be the entire basis for making a judgement about his philosophies or methods. Patricia McConnell's books are studded with stories and case studies of aggressive, fearful, seriously latch-ditch effort dogs that she has worked with.

And do the methods work for some dogs in some situations? Sure. They wouldn't have been used for decades if they didn't. But "it works fine enough now" is never a good reason to not look for room for improvement.

You missed the whole point of the question. Let's try again. As far as, the people who condemn him and his methods, (which some of you have done too) why does his pack seem to calm and happy. Now, do you think you can try to answer that.

If you know dog behavior at all, it isn't difficult to put together a pack that will get along.  My play groups every week are filled with dogs who get along - and the record number of dogs playing in the hall all at once on a Sunday was 53.  Some of my friends have packs similar in composition to Cesar's, and those dogs all get along.  But, I notice that most of his dogs seem to be male, which does make it easier than having a pack of intact bitches, for example.  Two Kerry Blue females who don't like each other might be harder to deal with than the Pits, IMO.
There are plenty of people who like dogs, and who muddle through for years and years with their outdated methods, and nothing awful ever happens to them.  So, I really don't think that his ability to have that large pack of dogs is necessarily indicative of any particularly godlike abilities with dogs.  He's simply a guy who is macho enough to deal with aggressive dogs and got lucky enough to land on the Oprah show.  Dr. Phil, had that not happened to him, might still be listening to drunkalogues in Mudville or East Podunk.
There are certainly other people with abilities that are far superior who never get on TV.  And, frankly, it is a bit irritating to know that they are not getting the recognition they deserve for being able to do the same rehabbing in a dog-friendlier manner.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: DPU  Look at the resistance I got when I tried to vary the element age.  Caused confusion, negative feedback, and non responses. 

I thought I did give you, at least, my answer and thoughts about it.

 
Sorry this is Off Topic.  Yes you did, a direct answer pretty much stating if the dog is near death from old age, then you thought Cesar would do something different and you stated you definitely would.  The element age as a variable can be puppy, adolescence, adult, middle age, and old age.  So there was no real discussion, just a question out there and there is one answer.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

He's simply a guy who is macho enough to deal with aggressive dogs and got lucky enough to land on the Oprah show. 

 
You are right about that, he is a lucky "dog" indeed [], luck or not luck, recognition or not recognition that does not change the fact that he is good at it, if he was not good at it he would not be where he is right now. I'm sure Paris Hilton has way more connections and that does not make her an actress or singer []

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

I asked it before but no one answered, so perhaps asking it strait out is the best way. How is it that people can claim Cesar's methods are that of the dark ages, he's abusive, what he does is wrong, and yet! Anyone can plainly see with their own two eyes, here's a guy who rescued abused, aggressive, and unbalanced dogs, has at least 25 to 30 somehting of them all hanging out together. And they all look really happy, how is that? Perhaps the answer will clear some things up for those of us who don't understand you stance on this.

Don't let Cesar's dogs' illusion of happiness fool you.  It's called learned helplessness.[]
Honestly, I think some people might have a problem with an uneducated, illeagal, Mexican coming over here and turning the dog training world upside down.  How dare he?!

[]

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

I asked it before but no one answered, so perhaps asking it strait out is the best way. How is it that people can claim Cesar's methods are that of the dark ages, he's abusive, what he does is wrong, and yet! Anyone can plainly see with their own two eyes, here's a guy who rescued abused, aggressive, and unbalanced dogs, has at least 25 to 30 somehting of them all hanging out together. And they all look really happy, how is that? Perhaps the answer will clear some things up for those of us who don't understand you stance on this.

Simple. Human motivation and set belief systems. 

Those who ignore the rules, are clearly not here to discuss and learn, claim they've learned nothing here, and are only here to twist the words of others, bait, argue, and amaze us with their glib, self rewarding behavior (...is that a clue "chicky-poo"?) appear to be little more than forum trolls who've found a bridge to play under. [sm=flamethrower.gif][sm=blush.gif]

Maybe some others are simply believing what they've been taught to believe, seeing what they've been taught to see, saying what they've been taught to say and can't break free of a comfortable belief system which discourages independant thought and discovery with an open mind by others whom they associate with. 

Some could sit and watch Cesar working with his pack all day, and only see a "barbaric and abusive" man who bases his methods of "pain, force, and fear".

And, sometimes people will absolutely not do anything that does not feel good to them, first. Treat training is fun and feels good. Setting boundaries, walking your dog at heel, making your dog follow rules, giving a correction, etc...is something you do for the good of another's stability and well being. But, "Oh poo! My dog is perfectly fine when he jumping up in excitement or dragging me down the street with his nose to the ground. He doesn't need a structured walk! See? Doesn't he look happy?!...Oh look at poor Cesar's dogs! They are all shut-down and supressed through learned helplessness! It must be all camera tricks, smoke, and mirrors!"...and then you read in other threads that these same members are having behavior problems with their dogs. Huh? I just don't get that one...

However, I think the majority of those who participate here, whether they are pro-Cesar or not, do enjoy a healthy discussion or debate, have no problem sharing details of their personal experiences and where they have drawn their own conclusions based on real world experiences outside of what they have read in a book or in a slanted study on the net...since their honest motivation is exploration, knowledge, and finding the truth.

To some, seeing is believing. For others, they can't believe what they see, even when they see it with their own eyes! [:-]

Ah, humans...[8D]

Dogs are so easy. []

 My word that was condescending.

And misinformed.
 
Positive does not mean permissive, how many times do you have to be told that?  Positive trainers have dogs who walk at heel and who follow the house rules. I train with treats because treats are what motivate my dogs. If they preferred playing fetch, I'd train with fetch. If they preferred tug, I'd train with tug (which, by the way, is how bomb-sniffing dogs are trained--they specifically only bring dogs into the program who have a game of tug as their end-all-be-all motivator and use that to teach the scenting tasks). I train with treats because it works. You can choose to believe that I'm lying, that my dogs are ill-behaved monsters who don't follow any rules. But you'd be wrong. They sit or down until released, even with a full bowl of food in front of them. They sit until released at the front door even if I hold it open and chat with a neighbor.
 
Won't change their minds even given evidence to the contrary, indeed.

It seems some of the CM regulars spend a lot more time on this forum posting insults and raging about other members than discussing dogs!

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

It seems some of the CM regulars spend a lot more time on this forum posting insults and raging about other members than discussing dogs!

Who?

Not you!

Honestly, I think some people might have a problem with an uneducated, illeagal, Mexican coming over here and turning the dog training world upside down.  How dare he?!

As much as I am not a huge fan of his, I fail to see how his immigration status (though it has since been changed), nationality, and lack of academic formation (which does not mean one is uneducated) have anyting to do with his abilities or lack thereof with dogs.

I don't really think he's the Attila the Hun as many claim he is, I also don't think he's the Messiah as far as dog behaviour is concerned is either. The one thing he IS is someone in the spotlight, his mistakes AND his achievements will be blown out of proportion.

I was thinking yesterday, (well I try to think EVERYDAY, but yesterday was on this subject in particular) and I came up with something, so before you decide you DON't agree with me, read the whole thing and chew on it for a sec.

C.M. has nothing but the best of intentions as far as dogs are concerned, I don't question that for a second. And although he does not have any formal training, he learned thru observation, 25 years or so if i'm not mistaken, lets call it 30 for the sakes of round numbers. Keep that in the back of your head for a sec, we'll come to it later. Then take all the academics, Pat McConnel etc., these folks have similar amounts of time of practical experience, in some cases more in some cases less, BUT, the one thing that going thru an academic process gave them was the years of experience of those who came before them, so ad to whatever years of actual experience they have, whatever they learned that someone else figured out for them.

Second point to think about and then I'll try and wrap it up. A great percentage of the +R trainers/behaviourists out there are what we in this forum reffer to as "crossovers", they started by learning Koehler and over the years became what they are today, MRV had a post about that last week. So, for lack of a better term, lets say these people "evolved". What C.M. does, works for him, and it has for that last 30 years, so in reality, he has no reason to move from his comfort zone, that is what got him to where he is, that's what made him famous.

So lets add those two things together, I'm not bashing on CM's lack of formal education, but I do believe that had he gone thru the same process that McConnel, Clothier etc, he'd be one of them. So, while C.M. has GREAT merit on figuring out a bunch of things on his own, what he figured out thru observation (and later added some of his own), he could've learned in a lot shorter amount of time (and therefore added HIS stuff sooner) had he gone thru the academic circus. And this would be because someone had already figured out things for him and he could pick up where the people that came before him left.

We have all at some point discovered something on our own, and when we go and tell someone we get one of two reactions, "WOW, you're so smart, I didn't know that", or "duh, I could've told you THAT".

I'm not sure I articulated what I'm thinking correctly, maybe later on I'll come up with better verbage.

Eley,

I'm glad he's not "one of them". But I'm sure he will either include more guest trainers into his episodes, or start using some more actual conditioning methods himself.

I think he brings another perspective to the table which is not based on the "learning theory" principle.

I already understood a lot of what he was trying to say, but I actually had to unthink what I was seeing from a "training" point of view to catch where certain boundaries use of body positioning, direction, action, eye contact, ect, was a clear communication. Like the language of leadership. He also works with worst case scenarios through what he learned through nature and his own lifetime of personal study, field work, and hands-on with the dog. How many zoologists or biologists get to study (not train) and interact with their favorite species 24/7 for 20 years? Maybe Jane Goodall.

His study of the dog specializes in the social and behavioral, and the mixing of humans and dogs as family members. Most others start at the training end of things. I think the answer is the combination of the two.

So, I guess I'm glad he's approached things as if walking from the forest to the university, and not the other way around. There's actually a very simple and basic form of interspecies communication which we have lost somehow when we became civilized...and I use that term loosely. []

ORIGINAL: Trevell

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

I asked it before but no one answered, so perhaps asking it strait out is the best way. How is it that people can claim Cesar's methods are that of the dark ages, he's abusive, what he does is wrong, and yet! Anyone can plainly see with their own two eyes, here's a guy who rescued abused, aggressive, and unbalanced dogs, has at least 25 to 30 somehting of them all hanging out together. And they all look really happy, how is that? Perhaps the answer will clear some things up for those of us who don't understand you stance on this.

Don't let Cesar's dogs' illusion of happiness fool you.  It's called learned helplessness.[]
Honestly, I think some people might have a problem with an uneducated, illeagal, Mexican coming over here and turning the dog training world upside down.  How dare he?!

I have no problem with immigration.  Except for my Mi'kmaq and Cree ancestors, all my relatives were born of immigrants, too.  My father's parents were both immigrants.  But, I do have a problem with illegal immigration.  And, I have a problem with claiming to be something you aren't.  If you read his book, it is repetitive and not very suggestive of any truly insightful or broad knowledge of dog behavior.  When you read Brenda Aloff's book, "Aggression in Dogs", for example, you at least feel that the author has a firm grasp of the subject matter. 
Learned helplessness is less readily identifiable in dogs than in humans, but the effect is similar and the topic, perhaps, deserves a thread of its own.

eley,
You have just describe me!