How can this be?

ORIGINAL: mrv

Your example did not include the fact that observing a sport and trying it without adequate preparation is VERY different than  "teaching it".  To teach is a very large responsibility,  first do no harm.

 
And yet I read in an article where Melissa Jo Peltier (Cesar's producer and co-author) states they have received tens of thousands correspondences from grateful dog owners, vets, and trainers who submitted letters and case histories of how Cesar's basic philosophies have helped dogs.
 
Go read his book reviews, go read his NGC channel blog. Go read what his actual clients say, read what Scott Lincoln (the Jindo's owner) who's dog was "hung" (LOL) has to say. Read what actual owners and canine professionals (besides the borg) have to say about him. And, also take a good look at who else shows up on these sites with plenty to say, too.
 
I've seen plenty of "harm" done by (and to) out of control and aggressive dogs when the owners are not given the help they desperately need by someone they trust to help them with their dog, or refuses to send to them to someone else who uses a different method and/or philosophy.
 
But hey, there's always the "We are wise, and everyone else is stupid" arguement. [8D]
 
"Harm" is subject to interpretation and perspective on the big picture, and was already covered in another thread.

so be it,,,never the twain shall meet.

I thought my suggestion was a darned good one.  But hey, everyone ignore me! Except DPU obviously. 
 

Where were you on the CM and Fear thread where I tried to get a discussion going on risk taking?

 
I came in late on the CM and Fear thread and didn't post until even later so I must have missed that, sorry.  While I think people for the most part should be allowed to make up their own minds about the risks they take, (everything we do carries a risk of some sort anyway) I think they should be calculated risks.  Having dogs and children for example - there is an element of risk.  But you know what the dangers are.  The second biggest danger with people copying CMs show is that they don't necessarily know what the risks are.  The biggest danger, IMO, is the people who copy it and then spread that to others.  While the show carries a disclaimer, those people are often doing the opposite "hey do this it works!  I tried it on my friends lab and they were amazed!" etc.  I think my suggestion covers this as well as it could be covered..... unless the show was pulled altogether, but while I agree with mrv on  some points I have a suspicion that doing that may be throwing the baby out with the bath water...... that's JMO.

Having dogs and children for example - there is an element of risk. But you know what the dangers are.

 
One could write a book about why some people shouldn't have children.........but, they still do.......
 
 

ORIGINAL: silverserpher

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: mrv

Personal responsbility is a big issue.  Yes people should be held accountable.  So, why should individuals who want to share information not be held to the same standard as the people watching.

Lets roll with that shall we. Let's say you like and go skydiving or base jumping, and someone who's never tried it sees you doing it, and decides you make it look so cool they'll try it. They do, then they die. Are you responsible? That would be a scary world to live in. Oh wait, I think that's what it's coming too. Sad.

The flaw in  your argument is that the dog owners aren't trying this stuff on themselves----they're trying it on their dogs.  I don't care if owners give themselves an alpha roll, but what about the dogs?

"The flaw" is how you precieve the situation. But I'll change it just for you. So your at a park, you toss a treat to your dog that's beed caught do catch it. Someone sees you doing this and tries it with their dog. the dog catches it wrong, it lodges in the dogs throat and the dog dies. Are you at fault?" Perhaps we should all walk around with hat signs on that read, "please do not attempt anything you see me do.

This is still (bottom line) people not taking responsibility for their own actions. And like I said, that's makes this a scary country to live in sometimes. The *lawyers love it though. They just love helping people with rediculous law suits, and backing the system up so nothing of real importance gets done.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: mrv

personally, I would prefer the show not air in some cases. 

Yep, lets stop the flow of information because some don't like it. My TV comes with a channel changer.

OT, I know, but I wish some people's minds came with one.  [sm=devil.gif]Sorry, couldn't resist that one. []

ORIGINAL: mrv

Your example did not include the fact that observing a sport and trying it without adequate preparation is VERY different than  "teaching it".  To teach is a very large responsibility,  first do no harm.

What??? CM is only teaching the people he's with, not the viewer (which is "observing"). It's no different than those trainers who train at a park, and people in the back ground watching trying what they see at home.

I realize no one wants to take responsibility for their own actions, but that's just a character flaw. IMO

ORIGINAL: snownose

Having dogs and children for example - there is an element of risk. But you know what the dangers are.

One could write a book about why some people shouldn't have children.........but, they still do.......

LOL ain't that the truth.

Personal responsibility has been on the backburner for a long time........so, let's just shut off all movies and shows that show a dangerous approach to anything...that way nobody gets hurt............[8|][8|][8|]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: mrv

personally, I would prefer the show not air in some cases. 

Yep, lets stop the flow of information because some don't like it. My TV comes with a channel changer.

OT, I know, but I wish some people's minds came with one.  [sm=devil.gif]Sorry, couldn't resist that one. []

I'm not sur what OT is or if we're agreeing here, but the sad simple fact is, I'm not responsible for anyones actions but mine. I neither you or I can force people to think, be smart, and make common sense decissions.

ORIGINAL: snownose

Personal responsibility has been on the backburner for a long time........so, let's just shut off all movies and shows that show a dangerous approach to anything...that way nobody gets hurt............[8|][8|][8|]

And good lord, just look at the amount of parents teaching this to their children. You can't imagine how many times I've sat in court watching parents defend their kids bad behavior, and blaming everyone else. And these are the kids that will be running things when we're old. There is almost no respect left or shown these days. Now that's scary and sad.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: mrv

personally, I would prefer the show not air in some cases. 

Yep, lets stop the flow of information because some don't like it. My TV comes with a channel changer.

OT, I know, but I wish some people's minds came with one.  [sm=devil.gif]Sorry, couldn't resist that one. []

I'm not sur what OT is or if we're agreeing here, but the sad simple fact is, I'm not responsible for anyones actions but mine. I neither you or I can force people to think, be smart, and make common sense decissions.

It was a joke, so I guess we're agreeing.  No one can change another person - we can only state our case and hope for the best.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs


It was a joke, so I guess we're agreeing.  No one can change another person - we can only state our case and hope for the best.

Yay for us! LOL Hey, I still don't know what OT is?

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Yay for us! LOL Hey, I still don't know what OT is?

 
OT = Off Topic

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: mrv

Your example did not include the fact that observing a sport and trying it without adequate preparation is VERY different than  "teaching it".  To teach is a very large responsibility,  first do no harm.

What??? CM is only teaching the people he's with, not the viewer (which is "observing"). It's no different than those trainers who train at a park, and people in the back ground watching trying what they see at home.

I realize no one wants to take responsibility for their own actions, but that's just a character flaw. IMO

 
People should take responsibility for their own actions, yes I agree.  People who are stupid enough to employ the techniques of the show without the aid of a professional should take responsibility for their poor judgement, I agree.  BUT, the damage has already been done - the dog has already been harmed and/or bitten someone/been PTS.....   This should be prevented if at all possible, wouldn't you agree?
 
In addition, while the viewers should take responsibility for their actions, so should CM and the producers of the show.  They must be aware that a huge number of people do not see it as entertainment but as one viable source of information about their pets.  If they didn't this forum wouldn't exist or have so much traffic.  He wouldn't get so many letters from fans expressing gratitude.  Fans wouldn't be so quick to tell other how much respect he is owed for eductaing the public about their pets.  The show sends a mixed message; it carries a disclaimer, but negates that by suggesting at the end that people can emulate what he does simply and safely - I really think that needs to be addressed. 
 
It's an issue of trust.  There are times when you are put in a position of trust and have a duty not to abuse that trust.  Eg, if a teacher has a relationship with a student, it is the teacher who is disciplined because they were in the position of trust.  When you go to a professional, you trust that they know what they are doing and their advice is sound.  When CM became a celebrity and his knowledge and experience became well known, his fans trust that he knows more than they do and they are wise listen to his advice.  When you see someone tossing a treat to their dog in the park, what has instigated you to blindly trust that person?