That Pack O' Pits

ORIGINAL: ron2

I can see now that your method is the reverse of CMs. You let the new dog explore while the rest of the pack is kept sequestered. CM has the whole pack in the yard and introduces the new dog only when he or she is calm enough to enter.

I only have a comment.  I misread Espencer's post as to who first occupies the yard, new dog or pack.  Interestingly, I use CM's introduction for visiting dogs.  The reason is I know my pack is friendly and I know how they will approach a single dog.  The visiting dog is accompanied by its human leader.  Whereas with a new dog that I have only known for an hour and have not established leadership and any command control, there is more risk.  I need the dog comfortable and stable in the setting he is to meet the pack.  This is so when the pack approaches and surrounds, the new dog does not go into panic.  And I think the panic will result in total shut down or sudden rage.  Introducing these large dogs is a very big event for me and I go way overboard in taking precaution.  So much could happen.  When a meeting takes place adrennelin is running high and I hope all the dogs sense it and the results get me more control of the situation.  Not a quote from Espencer but I am pretty sure he would say that.

ORIGINAL  Ron2
And, FWIW, you may or may not think I have something to contribute but I think you are valuable for fostering and rescuing these dogs.

I would only attempt to "draw out information" if I knew the person has the answer, the knowledge, experience, or has a creditable recommendation.  When I don't know something I ask...like what does FWIW mean?  See I can wear the white hat sometimes.

like what does FWIW mean

 
FWIW = for what it's worth
 
CM also achieves calm leadership before the introduction, as well.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: DPU

Espencer, so far I am insync with CM on the initial meeting of bringing the new dog and pack together.  Is this flooding?  One key thing is as you say I am the leader of the pack, can control their behavior, and I know how each member will present themself to the new dog and how each will react.  The unknown variable is the new dog.  Now I am not stupid to just count on my role as leader and some simple attention getting techniques.  I prepare for an out of control situation by having some safety devices available.  E.g. a blanket, a hose, a broom and a few others.  What is CM's fall backs.

There is no way I can introduce dogs one at a time.  Logistics are not there.  I don't know for sure but I believe the dogs would be more aggressive since I have taken my dog out of the pack group and they would me meeting in home/protected area.  One-on-one should be a neutral area and off leash.  Now it was very interesting to watch 2 dogs being introduced to a pack of 5. 

The dogs can not be barking while they are watching the new dog before they get together, barking means excitement and thats not good for the meeting.

I think it can be consider flooding, i think he do it one by one because like i said before that takes the "back up" out from the dog, is not the same to fight against 5 other dogs yourself that if you have a friend that can help you, is not that the dog is planning to fight but for sure that option is out if he is by himself so he may not even consider it

I have seen a couple times when the new dog still starts a fight, ussually happens when the new dog's owner is visiting (even when the dog have been withthe pack for a couple days), the owners comes with anxiety to see if is working, the owner is nervous, the owner is tense, etc. the "new" dog picks up that energy and start a fight with one of the pack members, CM rule for the owners when they come to visit their dog is: no touch, no talk and no eye contact; some owners even arrive excited to see their dog again and thats a problem

Of course CM tell the owners to be calm but he cant control their emotions, if the owners still are excited thats when the fights brake in. Sometimes CM have to correct his own dogs because they are showing clues about trying to correct the new dog's energy themsleves to be calm

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

But, if you put a Boxer in with a herding dog, you may get the herder telling the Boxer off for being "rude" with her paws, or being too physical, or too much "in your face".  It's really just a matter of what you are willing to subject  your dogs to.  I want my dogs to genuinely like their packmates

Actually CM had an episode where he was explaining that at the "play time" dogs also have to be "calm", i know it sounds weird but he explains that if you let your dogs being too excited at the moment of play that could cause fights too, you know, getting for the ball first, wanting the ball while another dog has it, etc

CM has all kinds of breed in his pack, including boxers and herding breeds, CM makes sure to check that a dog is not, too rough, to much "in your face", etc he makes sure that every dog respects each other, he makes sure that every dog wont play in the same way and they have to respect that, and that goes for the "too much in your face" and well as the one who does not like that, find a balance is the key between the 2 ways of playing

That philosophy of "let them work it out" gives a lot of room for the dogs to set their own rules

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

not have to skulk around the house forever wondering when the newbie is leaving.

Dogs live in the moment, they are not thinking about past mistakes and for sure they are not thinking about what they need to do in 2 weeks, they think the newbie is here to stay, also i dont think dogs have "i-wish-he-leaves-soon" like feelings, if a dog is unbalance they dont "wish" him to leave, if you dont correct that unbalance behavior they will "for the good of the pack"

You have a right to your opinions, but I have actually been supervising dog play groups, with ever-changing groups of dogs, for over 5 years.  Dogs may live in the moment, but if every time they are confronted by certain dogs, the moment becomes one of fear, that isn't pleasant, and, believe it or not, they do remember the dogs that intimidate them.  Also, in your household pack, unless you don't work outside the home, you can't be there to assert your status all the time.  So, there's virtually nothing you can do to help dogs "get along" when you aren't there. Dogs can obsess on dogs to the point where the obsessed-upon dog gets exhausted, and they can scapegoat certain dogs, too.  Best to have a go at constructing a pack that has the best chance for success than assuming that no matter what you do, the dogs have to learn to live with it.  That's like letting your boss pick out your wife for you.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

That's like letting your boss pick out your wife for you.

 
Thats one way to put it, another one would be "is like letting your kids hate eachother", as a parent you want to teach your kids learn to live together and you dont kick out one just because the other does not like him/her, is only the way you want to see it, i rather to see it as a "glass half full"

Thats one way to put it, another one would be "is like letting your kids hate eachother", as a parent you want to teach your kids learn to live together and you dont kick out one just because the other does not like him/her

Not speaking for spiritdogs, but since I also made a comment about bringing dogs into the household that would best get along with my dogs, I'd like to respond. espencer we are talking about children that are born to the parents and they are the parents responsibility to take care of. In the other instance we are talking about bringing a dog from another source into our household that already has dogs. It would be totally unfair to bring a dog home that I know would cause problems with my other dogs. It also wouldn't be fair to the foster dog to bring him into a home where there would be a lot of problems with conflict. Why wouldn't one try to make the best match possible so that all will be comfortable. Now on the other hand, if my dogs, that are already part of my household, start to have some conflicts we will do all that we can to make things work out for all concerned, even if it means that I end up having to separate someone. They are already part of our household and my complete responsibility.

ORIGINAL: nymaureen

It would be totally unfair to bring a dog home that I know would cause problems with my other dogs. It also wouldn't be fair to the foster dog to bring him into a home where there would be a lot of problems with conflict. Why wouldn't one try to make the best match possible so that all will be comfortable. Now on the other hand, if my dogs, that are already part of my household, start to have some conflicts we will do all that we can to make things work out for all concerned, even if it means that I end up having to separate someone. They are already part of our household and my complete responsibility.

Yes, i agree and i know that if you are going to adopt a new dog you need to find one that has a better conection and same energy that your existing pack to save you headaches. CM in one of his episodes was helping a friend to adopt the best companion for her existing dog, he told her that if she was going to find a dog that could match perfectly that would be the best, but we are not talking about which is the best dog to adopt for a family that already has dogs, you are missing the point, we are talking about  what CM does when he brings a new dog  for the the purpose of rehabilitate him/her, which are 2 different things, he is an expert and his pack can accept any dog under his supervision (which bring us to the beginning of the discussion about saying that it can be done and there is not any impossible about it)

The new dog will pick up the calm energy from the already calm pack and that would help the new dog to become balanced, if your pack is going to have conficts with the new dog is for 2 reasons, 1 because you are not letting the new dog that the pack has rules, or 2,  because your pack is not balanced, because your pack will set the rules for the new dog instead of you

If you delegate jobs to the members of the pack then you can for sure expect problems

BTW, is it still true that the majority of Cesar's dogs are male?  Lots of them are Pits - known to be respectful of humans...  Do I notice that DPU's dogs are male?  One of them is a hound (the likeliest of all breeds to think packs are cool, no matter who's in them).  So, the advice that you give to DPU may not hurt, unless the dynamic changes.  You guys are using the human comparison to your advantage, but nymaureen has stated it best - dogs are not people, and once socialized to a particular pack, will think of others as intruders - that's pretty much hard wired behavior, in varying degrees of intensity.  Now, some dogs, having been around lots of other dogs since puppyhood (this is especially true of strays, or farm dogs, etc.) may be fine.  But, the one dog you run across that will not be fine will tear holes in someone and not give up.  Try mixing a few intact Kerry Blue terrier bitches who don't like each other in with your magical little packs and see what happens.  [:'(]  Males grr a bit, but seldom kill one another.  Females are another ballgame sometimes.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

BTW, is it still true that the majority of Cesar's dogs are male?  Lots of them are Pits - known to be respectful of humans...  Do I notice that DPU's dogs are male?  One of them is a hound (the likeliest of all breeds to think packs are cool, no matter who's in them).  So, the advice that you give to DPU may not hurt, unless the dynamic changes.  You guys are using the human comparison to your advantage, but nymaureen has stated it best - dogs are not people, and once socialized to a particular pack, will think of others as intruders - that's pretty much hard wired behavior, in varying degrees of intensity.  Now, some dogs, having been around lots of other dogs since puppyhood (this is especially true of strays, or farm dogs, etc.) may be fine.  But, the one dog you run across that will not be fine will tear holes in someone and not give up.  Try mixing a few intact Kerry Blue terrier bitches who don't like each other in with your magical little packs and see what happens.  [:'(]  Males grr a bit, but seldom kill one another.  Females are another ballgame sometimes.

 
Well he does not say how many are males or females but he has both of them, by the way we started with human comparison untill you brought the "your boss picks your wife" example
 
We are going in circles here, all what you stated in your post was explained already

We always go in circles, espencer, we just don't butt sniff.
[sm=rotfl.gif]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

We always go in circles, espencer, we just don't butt sniff.
[sm=rotfl.gif]

 
Aaaaaand thats something i thank God for [], now if you excuse me i would try to erease that mental picture out of my head [X(]

Aaaaaand thats something i thank God for , now if you excuse me i would try to erease that mental picture out of my head

 
Come on, you're a man, you can handle it.[]

ORIGINAL: snownose

Come on, you're a man, you can handle it.[]

 
There is some things that not even a man can do, it does not matter if is Carmen Electra's butt []

Dog = Nose, eyes, and ears. They also communicate through touch and vocalizations, and follow a leader naturally.

Humans = All mouth and eyes. Yack, yack, yack, with no clue as to the subtle signals they send through smell, vocal tone, and body language which a dog reads in "dog". Oh, don't touch the dog to communicate! Conditioning is all you need as long as you are "feeling" good and getting what you want, regardless of what you are communicating indirectly to the dog (that maybe you are not leadership material or a leader one minute and a subordinant the next). 

Humans deceive, manipulate, plot, conspire, and "lie" to get what they want. I've seen very little of this in dogs, mostly just manipulation.

Humans also follow "unstable" leaders who deceive, manipulate, plot, conspire, and lie to get what they want. Dogs don't willingly follow unstable or "soft" leaders. Unfortunately, a dog is given little choice of who he is forced to live with.

Humans will also embrace a philosophy which makes them "feel" good and look "good" to other humans. Even if that philosophy is not in the best interests of putting the needs of another before their own.

And humans (modern man), go off the chart as far as "self-rewarding" behaviors.

Yack, yack, yack...[]

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Humans also follow "unstable" leaders who deceive, manipulate, plot, conspire, and lie to get what they want. Dogs don't willingly follow unstable or "soft" leaders. Unfortunately, a dog is given little choice of who he is forced to live with.

 
I would not call it exactly as "following ustable leaders" (willingly or not) because in the dog's mind (like CM says) that would guarantee the "end" of the pack, i do believe however that dogs know that the human is the only one that have access to some things that he/her wants so they might manipulate the enviroment to get it, since they dont consider the human as leader (even when the human is the one that gets the food, treats, etc) they still feel they are the ones in charge of setting the rules, boundries and limitations the pack needs, at the end thats far more important for the pack that getting treats

ORIGINAL: espencer
 
I would not call it exactly as "following ustable leaders" (willingly or not) because in the dog's mind (like CM says) that would guarantee the "end" of the pack, i do believe however that dogs know that the human is the only one that have access to some things that he/her wants so they might manipulate the enviroment to get it, since they dont consider the human as leader (even when the human is the one that gets the food, treats, etc) they still feel they are the ones in charge of setting the rules, boundries and limitations the pack needs, at the end thats far more important for the pack that getting treats

 
Your right. If a dog cannot leave the human it is forced to live with, it can either live in confusion or insecurity, or try to take lead itself by filling the leadership "void" and taking charge.
 
Kind of depends on the dog. You can get away with a lot more with a naturally calm, low-energy, subordinant dog than you can with a naturally dominant, high-energy, or "alpha-wanna-be" dog.
 
In the wild, an unstable leader may be overthrown or a follower may leave and find another pack.
 
We deny our dogs the choice of leaving, and sometimes we also deny them the leadership they need, while still providing them with food, water, and shelter.
 
I think we are pretty much on the same page here. []