That Pack O' Pits

I think his first large pack was about seven or eight rotties.

I believe you are correct. He has also rescued Pit Bulls from raids of fighting rings. Including his favorite Pit, Popeye, a female who lost one of her eyes in the ring. Popeye can walk off leash with her, on the street.

I think you and Spencer answered adequately how CM introduces a new dog to a pack, though the original direction of this thread was simply to acknowledge and celebrate his ability to keep a pack of "fighting" breeds harmoniously together. And that, basically, he introduces a dog to the existing pack. And the territory is the compound. And that territory belongs to CM, not the dogs. That is, CM makes the yard neutral territory because it is his and he does not allow fighting. And yes, I've seen him wait a few minutes for a dog that was showing a stiff tail and forward stance to calm down, before he allowed the dog to enter. But, essentially, the dog is going to have to join the pack and get along, which happens after the dog realizes that he doesn't have to defend him or herself. Of the two Katrina dogs, one was a male, one was a female, both intact. The male started marking and charging other males for breeding rights. So, CM had them spayed and neutered. In this case, it made a difference in the male, an Akita mix. In the end, the dogs have to understand the rules and accepted behavior. When they do, they get along. This does include plenty of exercise and play. Big, drivey dogs used to have jobs. Now, they don't have the jobs but still have the energy. Energy that will be released, one way or another. Once some of the energy is toned down (needs are met) they can pay better attention. That is for the average owner. For someone who's dog does agility, they get their exercise and training at the same time but it is also labor and time intensive for the owner, just as owning a sled dog team eats up money, time, and effort. For the sled dog team, the daily run or two is their job. Pulling a couple of hundred pounds at 20 mph for a couple of hours, to start. At the end of the day, they eat and crash. Imagine a lab, bred to swim or run a few hundred yards, in spurts for most of the day, sometimes retrieving a catch or kill and the amount of energy that takes. Now, take that same high-energy dog and put him in a 1,000 sq foot apartment.

In any case, it takes energy and involvement from the owner. And I think that would go for introducing a new dog to the pack.

I'm certain there are few cases where ultimately a CM case went bad. And maybe they will show some of them as a cautionary tale to always seek training for your dog, to consider breed and temperment when getting a dog. It should also be noted that CM advises getting a vet check as the basis for the solving of a behavioral problem. Make sure, first, that the dog is not misbehaving due to pain, illness, or defect.

I haven't seen CM do anything magical in introducing a dog to the pack, other than he will see to it that the new dog is calm and non-aggressive at the time of entry. And he is absolutely sharp as a tack in watching body language signs and redirecting or correcting before escalation.

ORIGINAL: ron2

Sorry, I described exactly what I see from the show. Unless you're just saying that to be argumentative.

 
Ron2, Not argumentative.  Trying to draw out more information to improve home/personal situation.  I don#%92t have a qualification issue with posters and I have never asked or questioned anyone#%92s credentials.  If a strong statement is made that contradicts my personal experience I will attempt to draw out more information from the individual to understand the basis and how the conclusion was reached.   Admittedly, this is selfish on my part because I am not attempting to change a view but to possibly reevaluate mine.  (With the exception that more can be done or done differently to help dogs in woes.)
 
You have a big advantage over me because you have access to CM in different venues.  Watching the shows is not an option for me because I don#%92t have cable.  My tv is a 24” portable with rabbit ears and the only stations I get is CW/WGN, ABC, and NBC.  I have to change channels on the tv because a foster chewed up the remote long ago.  I do not have a dvd but I have a vcr and as you know, dvds is what is sold.  I am not an avid reader and I am so backlogged with books that I purchased on recommendations from fellow forum members.  I don#%92t know if CM#%92s book would give me a vivid description of the setting and controlled situation CM uses when he introduces a new dog to the pack.  My only resource on CM is these discussions and I have read a lot of them.
 
Ron2, read your post then read Espencer.  He provides volume and details.  Nothing to do with “qualified”.  I do learn from experience and now I know not to draw out you and that is a disappointment because I considered you and Shadow a resource. 
 
The very first thing I do is get the dog in a calm state as espencer says in his previous post.  The dog is placed in the secured backyard and allowed to explore and get familiar with the boundaries of the yard, the dog smells, sounds, hiding places, etc.  The pack is in the house visible to the new dog and also barking.  Both the new dog and pack are aware of each other.    This is the kind of description I was looking for when I asked how does CM do it.
 

We also all have to remember that this is a show and it is meant to be entertainment. We really do not know what goes on behind the scenes. He may have introduced a lot of those dogs one on one before even attempting to bring them into the whole group. Sorry, it is TV folks and I just can't believe everything I see or hear. 

ORIGINAL: nymaureen

We also all have to remember that this is a show and it is meant to be entertainment. We really do not know what goes on behind the scenes. He may have introduced a lot of those dogs one on one before even attempting to bring them into the whole group. Sorry, it is TV folks and I just can't believe everything I see or hear. 

 
Yeah, I'll bet all of those troubled dog owners are just actors and the pits in his pack are all drugged, too. []

Espencer, so far I am insync with CM on the initial meeting of bringing the new dog and pack together.  Is this flooding?  One key thing is as you say I am the leader of the pack, can control their behavior, and I know how each member will present themself to the new dog and how each will react.  The unknown variable is the new dog.  Now I am not stupid to just count on my role as leader and some simple attention getting techniques.  I prepare for an out of control situation by having some safety devices available.  E.g. a blanket, a hose, a broom and a few others.  What is CM's fall backs.
 
There is no way I can introduce dogs one at a time.  Logistics are not there.  I don't know for sure but I believe the dogs would be more aggressive since I have taken my dog out of the pack group and they would me meeting in home/protected area.  One-on-one should be a neutral area and off leash.  Now it was very interesting to watch 2 dogs being introduced to a pack of 5. 

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I am not inclined to force my dogs to "submit" to having dogs enter the pack that they cannot stand.  

Just curious, why do you think your dogs would not able to stand a new dog?

Actually, most of my dogs over the years have accepted dogs into the pack.  But, I had one female, for example, who would not accept an adult female larger than she was into the pack.  She would accept puppies and she accepted toy dogs.  But, she would fight a larger female.
You really just need to try it and see, know your own dogs and what they like/don't like.  Dogs may dislike another dog's play style, for example, and even if there's no fighting, one dog may always be running for cover - not a pleasant way to live.  For example, Boxers and Labs usually play nicely together.  But, if you put a Boxer in with a herding dog, you may get the herder telling the Boxer off for being "rude" with her paws, or being too physical, or too much "in your face".  It's really just a matter of what you are willing to subject  your dogs to.  I want my dogs to genuinely like their packmates, not have to skulk around the house forever wondering when the newbie is leaving.

ORIGINAL: DPU

Espencer, so far I am insync with CM on the initial meeting of bringing the new dog and pack together.  Is this flooding?  One key thing is as you say I am the leader of the pack, can control their behavior, and I know how each member will present themself to the new dog and how each will react.  The unknown variable is the new dog.  Now I am not stupid to just count on my role as leader and some simple attention getting techniques.  I prepare for an out of control situation by having some safety devices available.  E.g. a blanket, a hose, a broom and a few others.  What is CM's fall backs.

There is no way I can introduce dogs one at a time.  Logistics are not there.  I don't know for sure but I believe the dogs would be more aggressive since I have taken my dog out of the pack group and they would me meeting in home/protected area.  One-on-one should be a neutral area and off leash.  Now it was very interesting to watch 2 dogs being introduced to a pack of 5. 

 
The dogs can not be barking while they are watching the new dog before they get together, barking means excitement and thats not good for the meeting.
 
I think it can be consider flooding, i think he do it one by one because like i said before that takes the "back up" out from the dog, is not the same to fight against 5 other dogs yourself that if you have a friend that can help you, is not that the dog is planning to fight but for sure that option is out if he is by himself so he may not even consider it
 
I have seen a couple times when the new dog still starts a fight, ussually happens when the new dog's owner is visiting (even when the dog have been withthe pack for a couple days), the owners comes with anxiety to see if is working, the owner is nervous, the owner is tense, etc. the "new" dog picks up that energy and start a fight with one of the pack members, CM rule for the owners when they come to visit their dog is: no touch, no talk and no eye contact; some owners even arrive excited to see their dog again and thats a problem
 
Of course CM tell the owners to be calm but he cant control their emotions, if the owners still are excited thats when the fights brake in. Sometimes CM have to correct his own dogs because they are showing clues about trying to correct the new dog's energy themsleves to be calm
 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

But, if you put a Boxer in with a herding dog, you may get the herder telling the Boxer off for being "rude" with her paws, or being too physical, or too much "in your face".  It's really just a matter of what you are willing to subject  your dogs to.  I want my dogs to genuinely like their packmates

 
Actually CM had an episode where he was explaining that at the "play time" dogs also have to be "calm", i know it sounds weird but he explains that if you let your dogs being too excited at the moment of play that could cause fights too, you know, getting for the ball first, wanting the ball while another dog has it, etc
 
CM has all kinds of breed in his pack, including boxers and herding breeds, CM makes sure to check that a dog is not, too rough, to much "in your face", etc he makes sure that every dog respects each other, he makes sure that every dog wont play in the same way and they have to respect that, and that goes for the "too much in your face" and well as the one who does not like that, find a balance is the key between the 2 ways of playing
 
That philosophy of "let them work it out" gives a lot of room for the dogs to set their own rules
 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

not have to skulk around the house forever wondering when the newbie is leaving.

 
Dogs live in the moment, they are not thinking about past mistakes and for sure they are not thinking about what they need to do in 2 weeks, they think the newbie is here to stay, also i dont think dogs have "i-wish-he-leaves-soon" like feelings, if a dog is unbalance they dont "wish" him to leave, if you dont correct that unbalance behavior they will "for the good of the pack"

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: DPU

Dogs live in the moment, they are not thinking about past mistakes and for sure they are not thinking about what they need to do in 2 weeks,

 
I'm afraid I don't agree with this statement.  So if I hit my dog today he won't flinch from my hand tomorrow?  So when we get in the car and he clearly recognises the route to the vets, he's not dreading it?  To say they "live in the moment" is like saying you can subject them to anything no matter how unhappy it makes them, because "tomorrow is a new day"  (oh and also, "it's my darn house so I can do what I like").  I don't agree with that approach at all.
 
I think CM has a successful pack because he has carefully chosen the pack members and carefully monitors them.  It's not because he always has the right vibe so it will always turn out OK.  If people watching the show decide it's the latter and copy it, there's going to be a lot of unhappy pooches out there.

As far as "living in the moment" goes, you have to separate the ability to move on from a negative past experience and not projecting and premedatating into the future, from a learning experience.

If an e-collar is used to poison-proof a dog to keep him from being bitten, he will remember the lesson quite clearly and avoid snakes in the future. Most animals in the wild will remember a negative encounter with another animal.

When living with humans, if a dog has a scary experience with shiny floor by slipping and running into a window (as was shown in one of Cesar's episodes) the human present can turn this into far more than a simple slip and fall, through their emotional outburst and need to give comfort to the dog. The dog does not see this as comfort. They only sense that the unpleasant situation they just experienced happened in conjunction with their fellow pack member being upset and stressed. If the owner did not overreact in such an emotional way, the dog would have been able to move on from the trauma more easily.

A dog who is very "sweet" at home with it's owners, yet becomes aggressive on the street towards other dogs, has not been premeditating their aggression up until the moment they encounter the other dog. However, the owner has the ability to either add to the drama by remembering how their dog behaved in the past and sending the dog cues of "danger" by how they behave when they see another dog enter the picture, counter conditioning the dog, or insist the dog move with their trusted Pack Leader past the other dog and ignore it.

"Living in the moment" refers more to how animals are able to move on when given a chance to due so under the confident, unemotional guidence of a leader they trust, and also that they are beings of action in the present, rather than premeditation of what "might" happen or what they "plan" to do, in the future.
 
JMHO

Thank you Espencer.  I have introduced my pack to new dogs on over 20+ occasions in many years.  I have also introduced the pack that includes new dog (nd has redefined the pack) to visiting dogs many of times.  The visiting dog requires a different procedure because it is less of an event and I can be less cautious because all dogs' behaviors and reactions are somewhat known.  With adding a new dog, you are correct that before the meeting between new dog and pack, both have to be calm.  After the new dog is settled, and I have established a friendly relationship, and shown some leadership moves, I go inside and settle the pack.  I have calm techniques.  The pack continues to observe new dog through a window barrier.  The very first contact is through a crack in the door where new dog and pack sniff nose to nose.  If all goes ok I proceed.

Spiritsdog's statement "I want my dogs to genuinely like their packmates, not have to skulk around the house forever wondering when the newbie is leaving.” Is consistent with my observations.  This was the area of my objection to your original post.  After introduction and time has passed the pack changes with respect to pairing, playgroups, and the timing of play- duties- guard-rest.  Blizzard, who happens to be the biggest dog at 185lbs, usually gets her way with choice of rest place, toys, eating, etc.  You might term it as a subtle defiance of my leadership because she does not engage in play with new dog and steps out of the play area when new dog plays with other members.  It may be interpreted as a snub when Blizzard retires to the second floor rather than lounge in the living room with the rest of the pack.  I don't react to this because eventually Blizzard comes around, it is not forever.  The others dogs are not so subtle but I am sure it exist.  You say dogs live in the moment and in the moment Blizzard is sulking because she wishes the new dog to leave.

Have you seen CM introduce a pack to another pack?  I am interested in the behavior and I want to confirm my observations when I introduced a 2 dog pack to my pack of 5.  The 2 dog pack are not 2 new dogs but 2 dogs that lived with each other and have bonds.  It is different from the 1-5 meeting. 

Chuffy, you mistakenly used my username with a quote.  I did not make that statement, Espencer did.

DPU,

I know this question was directed at espencer, but I have some info about whether or not Cesar combines his pack with another pack.

The answer is "yes". The lady who held the seminar I attended also has a large pack of rescued rehabbed dogs. She sometimes takes one of his dogs and sometimes sends cases to him. Her name is Cheri Lucas of Second Chance at Love Humane Society. She is one of only a few people who has been trained by Cesar personally to both rehabilitate dogs and work with large packs. She was featured in the episode with the Hurricane Katrina dogs (for those who get the show).

When Cesar visits, he often brings his pack and they all go walking along with some of the dogs from Cheri's pack in the countryside where she lives.

ETA: Linn Boyke has also been trained personally by Cesar to rehabilitate dogs and has a large pack of his own. Linn conducts 3-day workshops and also offers an intensive 30-day shadow program where he only works with two carefully selected students at a time.

Note: Sometimes when a dog who thinks "they are in charge" has their position taken away, they go through a readjustment period to find their new place. This does look like "sulking". But, if the dog accepts the human as their Pack Leader (not another dog) they will move on and adjust, as long as the human does.

Just taking the leadership position away from certain dogs who think they are not subordinant to their human, can cause the dog to go through an adjustment to their new position. Some dogs will submit easily and actually seem relieved. Some dogs will challenge you. Some dogs will avoid you for a period of time. And some dogs just get "quiet" while they readjust.

Unfortunately, many humans don't realise this and start projecting their own human emotions onto the dog, misread what's going on, feel sorry for the dog, go comfort the dog, and make-up to the dog by making "submissive" gestures...which will confuse the dog even more.

This constant flip-flop of asserting your leadership position on a pushy (dominant behaving) dog and then making up (acting submissive) is a big mistake, IMO.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy


I'm afraid I don't agree with this statement.  So if I hit my dog today he won't flinch from my hand tomorrow?  So when we get in the car and he clearly recognises the route to the vets, he's not dreading it?  To say they "live in the moment" is like saying you can subject them to anything no matter how unhappy it makes them, because "tomorrow is a new day"  (oh and also, "it's my darn house so I can do what I like").  I don't agree with that approach at all.

I think CM has a successful pack because he has carefully chosen the pack members and carefully monitors them.  It's not because he always has the right vibe so it will always turn out OK.  If people watching the show decide it's the latter and copy it, there's going to be a lot of unhappy pooches out there.

 
Well i said dogs "live in the moment", i've never said dogs are stupid [], what Angelique said about it is right 

Angelique, thank-you.  I am wondering if I should attempt to call those two people you mentioned.  I#%92ll try when I go back to work. 
 
With regards to your statement “Sometimes when a dog who thinks "they are in charge" has their position taken away…”, I hope you are referring to the dog#%92s “in charge” and “leadership” over other dogs and not the human.  In my house that would be a never.  Your statement then confirms my observation with sulking being the reactive behavior.
 
I am interested to know what is the typical behavior of the dogs when two packs meet in a home setting.  On two occasions I introduced two rescued dogs who always lived together to my pack of 4 or 5 resident dog.  I followed my procedure for introducing one new dog to the pack.  When it came to the “flooding” step, the packs retreated to different areas of the yard (1st picture).  Next, the dog, Petro who is the lowest ranking member, a goofball, and lives to play, goes over to the new dogs (2nd picture).  He engages the Mastiff and the Mastiff responds.  The Collie is steadfast cautious and later on I find out he is very protective of the mastiff.  Petro persist and eventually lures the Mastiff to the play area.  The Collie joined in when Drizzle joined (3 picture).  It took awhile before Blizzard in (4th picture).  Lady, a field pointer did not join in until later.  Again, this is pretty much what happened on the 2nd occasion.  One fact I know for sure is that my resident pack are friendly and accept new dogs into their pack.

ron2 - you are so right - it does get tiresome when your responses create sarcasm.  My sister has had up to 8 dogs at a time - they were trained to behave (not like each other), but behave.  And that's the bottom line.  My personal dog isn't fond of other dogs, but when I visit my sister I can safely let her out  with the other dogs.  If they approach her too enthusiastically she just stands still - eventually they get bored with her and go on to other things.  Do little tiffs break out - yes - they are handled with a quick response and if necessary a "down" to all dogs.  I'm sure that CM's dogs don't adore every one in the pack - but they have learned to behave.  And I am also mightily impressed that a group that large does work together.
 
dianeg

This is the kind of description I was looking for when I asked how does CM do it.

Well, I simply state what I see and what I can surmise, rather than recite from the show.  I did that partially because I thought you were interested in the mechanics of the introduction. And both Spencer and Angelique did provide more detailed answers.

I can see now that your method is the reverse of CMs. You let the new dog explore while the rest of the pack is kept sequestered. CM has the whole pack in the yard and introduces the new dog only when he or she is calm enough to enter. But he will remain vigilant and take control if the new dog gets a bit antsy, similar to how you may keep a towel, blanket, or bucket of water, or whatever to distract or break up a confrontation. In his compound, feeding is an NILIF event, and that goes for the entire group, pack and newbie. In his words, the dog gets to learn how to be a dog.
 
And, FWIW, you may or may not think I have something to contribute but I think you are valuable for fostering and rescuing these dogs.