That Pack O' Pits

ORIGINAL: Dulce Pit Bull

Ah! This has turned into another debate and is a bit off topic!

Let's talk about Pitties people [] This is so exciting for me, hehehe.

Spiritdogs--Have you actually ever OWNED  an APBT or SBT or AST??? I'd really like to know...

No, but have had quite a few as students, and some of my friends own AmStaffs or Pits.  Owned a Dobe in the 80's.  But, what's your point?  I certainly hope you aren't assuming that because I don't own one that I have no experience with them.  A trainer cannot possibly own one of every breed that they must work with - now, that would be a big pack LOL.

Um, I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just asking, Geez

ORIGINAL: DPU


To make Dulce Pit Bull happy, the last dog I introduced to the pack was a ittie mix, Newt.  

I don't know if that was said sarcastically, but YAY!! DO you have a pic??

Not sarcastically.  The discussion is CM, Pitties, packs, and dog introduction to an existing pack.  I live the common thread.  From my own personal experience in dealing with my home situation where the pack dynamics are always changing, espenser's post was right on while other parts are dead wrong.  I need a base line so I asked what is CM procedure for introducing a new dog to a pack and I am interested in his role during the introduction. 

so I asked what is CM procedure for introducing a new dog to a pack and I am interested in his role during the introduction

 
In one case, he introduced one dog. The pack is already balanced and calm. The new dog has a bit of culture shock, meeting so many dogs that are not being defensive. He clears the dogs away from the gate. Then, he lets in the new dog. And keeps an eye on that dog. If it gets reactive, he takes control. Another time, he introduced two dogs made homeless by Hurricane Katrina. He introduced them one at a time.
 
Earlier, you wished to have a response from people educated in this field. There is one person here that has education and direct caretaking experience with several animals, from dogs, to gray wolves, to a white bengal tiger. Unlike me, many people here have been in the habit of ignoring her.
 
There are people here with academic creds in human psychology and behavioralism, and for some, it is specialized in child developement. But the one with animal education creds and experience tends to not reply much if at all, as it gets tiring having people tell you that you don't know anything, that you are wrong, that your education and experience are worthless. That happens enough times, you quit posting as much.

Ron2, sorry I have to say your response is too vague with describing how CM does it.  It does not even include safety precautions and even hints as to what to look for when the new dog becomes reactive.  Should I wait for espenser's response, whom seems to know a lot or is there a site that I can reference.  Two of the posters on this thread mentioned safety to the dogs is paramount.  I want to make sure I am covering every base in that regard.  I honestly have not seen a disucssion on the forum where a new dog is introduced to a large pack in a home setting.
 
As to the last two paragraphs, total fly-by, 747 speed.  I have no idea what you are talking about.

OT. 
 
DPU,  Is Newt the pup that was dumped in your yard?

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

OT. 

DPU,  Is Newt the pup that was dumped in your yard?

 
Yes, the vet puts his breed mix opinion in the medical records and those records are turned over to the adopters.  I know there was a lot of discussion on Newt's mix but the organization is locked into what the vet wrote.

Oh I wasn't questioning his breed at all - he looks part pit.

I was thinking he looks so good, he is a beautiful boy and getting big, well adjusted and happy!  [] 

DPU, I do introduce dogs here frequently but I'm afraid I'm not much help. Mostly they are either here to work (as in dogs visiting to work sheep) or rescues/trainees who will be "around" for a week or more before being fulling integrated. By that time I've seen how they are with my dogs during momentary on leash encounters and I'm ready to deal with specific behaviors that present. Signs that there might be a problem - obvious arousal long after the first introductions, zeroing on a particular dog, or even drawing the attention of a particular dog in my household (sometimes this means either the dog has a pathological problem the household dog is picking up on, or that he or she is "picking a fight" with the other dog using signals I can't catch).

I'll admit that the dogs I deal with don't generally have problems with other dogs, other than reactivity, which is not so much aggression as an inability to control impulses. Most of these working dogs are in intense training and don't really have much free play time where such aggressions play out normally.

That's totally a non-help, I'm sorry. []

Ron2, sorry I have to say your response is too vague with describing how CM does it.

 
Sorry, I described exactly what I see from the show. Unless you're just saying that to be argumentative.
 
The other paragraph was, perhaps, a little OT here but you seem to have a problem lately where none of us is "qualified" enough to answer your questions. Very few of the people here are actually in the dog care industry or profession. And some haven't had the best track record in responding to a trained, credentialed animal expert.
 
As for someone with creds in dog training, such as Spiritdogs, I get the sense that she would suss out the temperment of a dog first and would only be able to foster it if she had some reasonable degree of trust that the ersonality is going to mesh well with others.
 
As for basic procedure, I can't get more basic than I what I've seen from the show. Unless, of course, I'm not "qualified " because I'm not Spencer.
 
Don't worry, you haven't hurt my feelings.[] lease, try again.
 

What scares me when people see this pack, that Cesar Milan has, is that it may make people think that all dogs can get along. People don't seem to realize that there may be many others that didn't get along. I also would challenge to give free run of a house to various dogs in his pack and see whether they would still get along.....a house being what the normal setting would be for most people. These dogs are in a very large area and they have the chance to back off if they think there is a possible threat. Put them in a household where the quarters are very close and one dogs passes another a bit too close or the various other things that can get a fight started when you are in closer quarters and you may have problems with these dogs of the pack.
People also have to realize that the fact that these dogs are together is due to someone that knew what dogs could be put together and has control over them. I don't believe he has success with all dogs. I also really wonder if these dogs are left together when no one is around.
I copied the following from some of his dogs that were for adoption.  It does mention in the profiles that some don't get along with all other dogs or any dogs and most, if they are going to be with other dogs will need someone that knows how to manage them.
 
Sumatra
She needs some basic obedience training and can live okay with other dogs as long as they are in her pack and her owner is dominant and she understands they are the leader, not her!

Munchkin
I am really social with people but am sometimes choosey with other dogs and don't like cats much.

Spot
I have to admit, I'm not good living in close quarters with other dogs (or cats!) and to be on the safe side I shouldn't live with kids either.

Popeye
I am good with other dogs when properly introduced and would fit in well with a family that has a female of medium size that won't challenge my manhood but can hold her ground too. Here's the link where I found this info.
[linkhttp://www.muchlove.org/available_dogs/Cesar_dogs.htm]http://www.muchlove.org/available_dogs/Cesar_dogs.htm[/link]


I too bring the occasional foster into my house, but I bring ones that I know will be able to work out with my dogs.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I am not inclined to force my dogs to "submit" to having dogs enter the pack that they cannot stand.  

Just curious, why do you think your dogs would not able to stand a new dog?

ORIGINAL: DPU

Espencer,  I am interested in how CM introduces a new dog to the pack and why his know-how is unique to his method.  I am particularly interested in the setting and CM's involvement in the meeting.  I have 3 dogs of my own and I foster 2-3 for a rescue group.  My rescue group sends me the dogs that appear to have "get along” problems with the residence dog.  I have had successful introduction with every last one of them so I believe CM can have a perfect record.  

Is not the same to know how to play basqueball by reading a book than by watching the sport itself, it is 100 times better if you could see in on TV but i will try to help you anyway

First the new dog has to be calm before crossing the door to the pack, any unstable energy in excess at that moment could bring the pack to try to correct that behavior themselves, once the dog is calm in the best way possible (of course since is an unsable dog he will still be fearful, hyper or aggressive in some level but thats why you are there) you take the dog, open the door and walk right inside (if you let the dog realize what is happening you will give him time to react against it) once the new dog is inside you just let him go (he wont know what to do since it was suddenly, then by nature he will expect the reaction of the pack first to know what to do then) CM says that if you dont talk at the moment of the greeting is better, you let the balanced pack to sniff the new dog, you have to check any undesired reaction from any member of the pack as well as the new dog by correcting it right away (with a touch in the shoulder like CM along with a short noisemade by you to redirect the atention seems to be enough),  like i said before the new dog is waiting for the pack to do the first move, but because the pack is acting calm-submissive then the new dog pick up that energy himself and starts being relaxed, he will start to realize that the pack wont hurt him and there is nothing to worry about (he knows that is himself aginst 3 or 4 other dogs so the idea of do something against them is not a good idea in his mind), the dog then starts to feel relaxed

Is very important to have a close supervision on the dog (and the pack) for the first week, a very dominant confident new dog can actually make other members of the pack follow the same energy so you have to check both, new dog not to share the wrong attitude and pack not to be aggressive to that new attitude or being affected the same way by it

You would have to walk the new dog for at least 45 minutes before the first meeting with the pack so the new dog can realize you are in charge of the situation during the walk and realize you will during the encounter, walk him not only because of that reason but to drain the extra energy that helps him to behave in an unbalanced way, an excercised dog know that has less chances to fight back againts a pack that if he has all the energy necessary for that

I dont think you should introduce dogs if is not one by one, you need to have 100% of your attention in one new member only and that way also the new dog wont feel he has "back up" if he decides to be unfriendly with the pack

Like i said, is way better to see it yourself that your read it, maybe i am missing some points, body lenguage, etc, if you dont have that TV station you can always buy the 1st season, not only to see how to introduce a dog to a pack but how to follow the progress

By the way i think ron2 explains the things better than me  [] and along with a couple other posters around here he is one of the best that understands CM techniques, if you ask him for more detail on his explanations i'm sure he would be able to refrain the answer without a problem [], i dont have a degree and i am like 90% of the people that post in this forum and talk by personal experience and what they have seen, i dont even have a dog business like some of the people here, i think i only have this easyness of looking beyond of what is in front of my eyes [] thats it

I have to agree with nymaureen 100%.  I think it would be great if, as well as showing the big, wonderfully balanced pack CM has they could also give info on what didn't work - which dogs weren't accepted by the pack and why, which are segregated when not supervised etc. etc. 
 
Is that how he normally introduces new members to the pack or is it just one example?    It sounds almost like flooding to me (taking into account he often takes on dogs with problems, possibly that don't intergrate well elsewhere).  Its controversial and while it might work for CM I don't think it's right for everyone.  You need to be experienced and knowledgeable to pull it off and even then you need to be aware that such a technique can be damaging to the dog.
 
Does he ever introduce a new dog to (at least part of) his pack on neutral territory, or advise others to do this?

Regarding Cesar's pack, I guess you would have to watch the show and see them all jostling and piling through a gate together to go into the back play area or see them all chasing after the same ball yourself.

Cesar is a good example of a leader who is the #1 animal in the group, all of the dogs are #2, and aggression is not allowed.

Cesar mentioned on one show his dogs may even give warnings and communicate with each other, but they are not allowed to grumble at him (disrespect). I've also seen him allow certain behaviors in play which would not be allowed if the dog was acting "serious".

His pack is supervised by either himself or someone else, so the dogs have a human leader present - this means there is a human leader on hand at all times to inforce the rules and keep the peace.

His pack is also exercised more than he recommends for a regular dog owner with two or three dogs, this way the dogs don't use their excess energy for social climbing.

Leaving a large pack of loose dogs at home all day is usually not recommended by anybody I know of, anyway. 

I had an ever changing pack when I had roommates, including my own female-to-female aggressive dog, and three other females. This shelter dog also learned that aggression was not allowed, and left the other females alone. She was not in charge, I was. The one roommate I had for awhile who "got-off" on the fact that her dog was so dominant and tough, was not allowed to let her dog mix in the main house pack because her behavior encouraged her dog's behavior, and she would not change. After she moved out I heard from her this dog had become so aggressive towards other dogs, she could not allow the dog contact with other dogs at all. Too bad.

It really depends on who is managing and maintaining the pack. Some folks have a few dogs that manage to get along well with each other because they've sorted it out amoungst themselves (often with at least some direction and boundaries from the owner). But take certain dogs away from their home pack to mingle with other dogs or bring a strange dog into your existing pack, and you will quickly see whether the human is the true Pack Leader, or not.

As leader, your rule is aggression is not allowed.

The rest of it involves supervision and seeing to it the dog's needs for exercise and mental stimulation is being met so they aren't tempted to vent excess energy getting into squabbles.

The fact that he has been able to do this with pits and other "bully" or "gladiator" breeds, says a lot. I think his first large pack was about seven or eight rotties.