If you like Cesar, who are your other role models?

trust me

 
Not you? Say it isn't so![]

I have most reccently enjoyed works by McConnell, Clothier and Kilcommons. Back in Junior High, it was Woodhouse & Monks of New Skete. My passion long before dogs was horses. I have read WAY too many of those to mention! I have "Clicking With Your Dog" and "101 Dog Tricks" by my chair right now so we can keep amused during the cold winter. I bought my little brother a Kilcommons puppy book for the little Brittany pup he just got. I have learned TONS from ALL of them and and also from Cesar.

But really, CESAR is the ONLY TRUE GOD.

[] KIDDING! That's sarcasm people []

Actually, I read "The Other End of the Leash" during a Dog Whisperer marathon and it was kind of freaky how many similarities there were. The discussions around here tend to emphasize the differences between Cesar and behaviorists like McConnell but there is a strong emphasis on leadership and treating dogs like dogs from BOTH of them. And the similarities between dog and horse training are also fascinating. Particularly when you start looking at how your own state of mind affects both types of animals, even though one is predator and the other prey.

I do have to laugh, though, when I hear other people's version of what "Cesar's Way" is. It's like when we all sit around the office and try to figure out what happened on Grey's Anatomy. Everybody comes up with a different plot and I have to wonder if they were all watching the same show.

But, I am fascinated by the fact that he is seems so charismatic as to have assembled such a corps of supporters who parrot his methods with such intensity of conviction

I do have to take offense to this statement. I do not "parrot" anyone. Making such generalizations just inflames the "us vs. them" rhetoric around this topic. It's like my neighbor, Amy. She loves to say how open-minded she is, but you should hear her go off if any "closed-minded bigot" who has he nerve to disagree with her. [:-] If I said everyone with a clicker was a Karen Pryor "parrot" I'm sure that wouldn't go unnoticed.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

But, I am fascinated by the fact that he is seems so charismatic as to have assembled such a corps of supporters who parrot his methods with such intensity of conviction

I do have to take offense to this statement. I do not "parrot" anyone.

I don't think this was directed at EVERY CM fan - certainly not at you personally.  But he has attracted an army of supporters who do "parrot" his methods.  It would be just as irritating if it was a Karen Pryor parrot!  Its not CMs fault, it's a testament to his charisma and marketability.  It's dangerous though, because while the show has a disclaimer telling people NOT to try this at home, most of his "pet parrots" are telling people the opposite!  I personally find all "pet parrots" irritating (CMs or anyone elses) because they so often manage to sound like they don't have any of their own ideas, they just rehash whatever they hear their idol saying. 

Maybe not, but I bet I could train a parrot with a clicker! []

I was not referring to anyone specific with my parrot comment, just saying that it's odd how people keep repeating his "mantra" as if he's, well, "the only true god". []

I'm horsey myself and there are just as many points of view with regard to that subject as there are here LOL.  I do remember that there was a distinct rift for a little while a couple of decades ago between the German and the English seats in dressage.  The former was exaggerated behind the vertical, and the latter a bit more upright.  But, back OT.

I am happy if CM, or the discussions surrounding his techniques, actually persuade people to continue to expand their frame of reference by reading and learning more, and not being parrots, clicker trained or otherwise. [sm=devil.gif]

A while back we had a poster who was involved in police dog training, he mentioned no clicker was ever seen during the training.
 
I think it is fair to say that many training methods can be successful.
 
I had dogs, I rescued dogs way before CM ever came up as the big superstar.

ORIGINAL: snownose

I think it is fair to say that many training methods can be successful.

 
I think this is the point - which methods/trainers do CM fans use and advocate other than CM?  If you are a fan of CM, what other trainers do you admire?  Do you use his methods?  Do you use any other methods in conjunction with them?

I think this is the point - which methods/trainers do CM fans use and advocate other than CM? If you are a fan of CM, what other trainers do you admire? Do you use his methods? Do you use any other methods in conjunction with them?

I do not look at one in particular, when I first got involved in rescueing, breeding and owning dogs, I would mill over lots of books, right down to studying the "Mendelian Chart"[]

In all honesty, there was so much conflicting information at times, and at times the authors of the books did agree, I took a little of everything, my own knowledge, watching my dogs and creating what worked for me.

Some of Cesar's approaches have helped with some of my powerful dogs, no abuse involved.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Maybe not, but I bet I could train a parrot with a clicker! []

I was not referring to anyone specific with my parrot comment, just saying that it's odd how people keep repeating his "mantra" as if he's, well, "the only true god". []

 
I think i spend more time to clarify misconceptions about his techniques than anything else and i dont think "the only true god" as you call him could teach my dog how to sit or retreive [] 
 
PS I was also being on topic all the time []

Maybe not, but I bet I could train a parrot with a clicker!

 
Points to Anne. That was a well-chosen bon mot.

I'm sorry, guys.
I went the most off topic. Since I don't know Cesar's techniques, I cannot say that I follow them and am a fan and I also do not know what other trainers/behaviorists I prefer.

ORIGINAL: snownose

A while back we had a poster who was involved in police dog training, he mentioned no clicker was ever seen during the training.

I think it is fair to say that many training methods can be successful.

I had dogs, I rescued dogs way before CM ever came up as the big superstar.

Do you mean Mic Foster?  He used a combination of methods, mostly positive, and was a fan of Jan Fennell.  Steve White, a 32 year veteran of police K9 training, is now using a clicker, and is currently touring with Trish McConnell, and transmitting some of his knowledge of police training to the pet training pros.  I just got his DVD (cheaper than going to the seminar) and he had a lot of good points to make.  I thought it was worth watching.

I'm just an enthusiast, not by any means a pro, so "role model" is kind of stretching it in my case. As far as the ones I WOULD take advice from, well, Sheila Booth and Gottfried Dildei would be at the top; some of the CM stuff does make a lot of sense to me; I do every now and then take some bits and pieces from Ed Frawley; Butch Cappel has some great stuff; Steve White, and some others. And of course I've read a lot of McConnell's and Clothier's stuff, which I think both are great .I think it's pretty clear from my list they all come from different schools of thought and that it may seem contradictive to take advice from them as a mix. What I have found, and this applies to anything, is that if you try and "stick" to one so called role model, you're going to be missing out on what others have to offer, and in some cases logic is overcome with faith, so it turns into a "If ________ said it, it MUST be right (or wrong)" and you try and convince yourself that you have a deeper understading of why you arrived to the right/wrong conclusion.

watching my dogs and creating what worked for me

 
Rats! I was going to say that. I learn a lot from just watching Shadow and how he interacts with the neighbor dogs.
 
This echos a point made by Anne, et al, at other times. Pack dynamics are fluid and the biggest dog isn't always acting as alpha. Shadow's sweetie, the wiener dog from next door. Our cat, Jade, is bigger and heavier than this little bit of a dog. But she wins Shadow's attention. He will go over and initiate a play bow, sometimes laying down, waiting for her to approach the fence so they can exchange sniffs and nuzzles. Or run along the fence. Shadow will have a run-on vocalization that some would misinterpret as a growl but I know better. It's the softest sound he can manage at 20 mph. Rhoaoaooarhoaoaoarhoaoa.... His bark will also change pitch and inflection within the bark itself. He's sweet-talking her. Yet, he will go argue with the bossy BC if she's getting too obnoxious toward his girlfriend. The bossy BC tries to herd the world. She will, in fact, scruff, pin, and bite her daughter, the other BC and the Healer mix.
 
Shadow is corrupting the wiener dog. I've seen her eating grass, ala Shadow. I think dogs can learn from each other and some pack dynamics do change, even if temporarily. The Healer mix, I think (?), is a boy and he may have the chutzpah to stand up to mama boss. But he is also more playful than mama boss. So, there are distinct personalities and some social processes at work. Of course, they all present a united front when they see another dog on the street, but it may turn into a barkfest, anyway.
 
So, watching dogs helps, too.
 
The other day, at Petco, Shadow approached a GSD who is well on her way to getting CGC rating with an end goal of being a therapy dog. And he licked the side of her muzzle. Of course, the next minute, he had a paw on her shoulder, then again, another time, the happy dance and side presentation. What this means is that a dog is not always looking to be alpha every minute, though they could change their mind in an instant and assume the role.
 
I wonder, too, if Shadow's better behavior in store with the GSD is partially due to walking in that shopping center. Not just exposure to the store but the fact that the walks are safer because of no loose dogs. If repeated walks without exposure to snarling loose dogs is having a good effect, then I could take credit for that.
 
Sorry I went OT, except to say that I learn from Shadow, his interaction with dogs, and the environment at large.
 

For the record,,, a "clicker" is always at work in dog training.  It is the marker that communicates to the dog what behavior was "wanted".  It does not matter what what you call it, there is a discrete event that occurs with enough frequency that the dog establishes a reliable and predictable response to a specific stimuli (ie the command)

Looks like the other thread where we discussed this is gone (along with some threads in this forum).

The first books on canine body language I studied almost 40 years ago were wolf studies. I don't remember who wrote the books, but most of the body language is still interpreted the same. Farley Mowatt's "Never Cry Wolf" was good for dispelling some misconceptions about wolfpack family life and behavior.

The Monks of New Skete had an impact.

William Koehler taught me where I didn't want to go, although I still use a bit of his leash work - but think of it a different way. Koehler also used a form of NILIF. Don't care for 99% of his "stuff".

Myrna M. Milani, Suzanne Clothier, Patricia McConnell, Stanley Coren, Bruce Fogle, Michael Fox, and James Harriot are favorite authors.

I've looked through some Turid Rugaas and Brenda Aloff's body language interpretations.

Could never get past Jean Donaldson's "angry" tone a condemnation of other method's and the "lemon brain" part, either. Is she the one who coined the phrase "pain, force, and fear" some trainers also "parrot" a lot?

I've read Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog". Some good info, but too much human psychology and personal opinion based on the training of captive dolphins vs dogs...the training and learning theory part holds up, but more is needed when living with an animal as a family member.

Actually, (John C) Lilly on Dolphins (although not dog related) was rather interesting because it showed an experiment with a woman who actually lived with a dolphin for a period of time in a flooded environment.

Jane Goodall, Diane Fossy, and Shirley Strum all have had an impact in their study of social animals, although they did research on primates.

And, the best teachers of all...personal observation, experience, and Mother Nature.[]