on growling

Hi Chuffy,

Welcome to the conversation. []Great to see you posting again!

I invite you to read the last page or so of the thread in which Ron and espencer were discussing the details of espencer's thinking, for example:

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: ron2
It sounds more like you're saying when the dog growls, you give a command or sound that may seem like you are stopping the growl but what you are really wanting to do is re-direct the dog's attention to you and let you handle the scene. Where you might use Tsst or no, I would use sit and watch.

Yes, thank you, that was a better explanation, you interrupt the behavior, re direct your dog's attention to you and that gives you more time to think what to do next besides you decreased the level of escalation right away

and

ORIGINAL: espencer
If you dont redirect the growl then there is a chance of you ending breaking up a fight, maybe even you needing stitches and having a real bad experience, everything for just not wanting to re direct a growl, i really dont want even the minumum chance of that

There is a lot more ways that a dog can communicate his feelings to others, redirecting the growl is not the end of his world, it helps you to prevent bad experiences, and you are letting your dog know that YOU are the one stepping up to the situation and that he can trust you

and especially,

ORIGINAL: espencer
You are saying: "Not need to complain, i am here to help you with your problem, you can relax now", what do you think your dog rathers to see? that or you being like : "oh no dude, you are on your own"?

How would you like him to further clarify?

I think everyone is saying the say thing and I agree.  I live it, and I see it everyday!!  You must understand why the dog is growling and redirect the dog so the issue isn't his issue anymore. 

Ixas, I agree with all the snippets of espencers you've posted since, about redirection etc.  What I was disputing was that interrupting the growl on its own would interrupt the state of mind.... I'm not sure I agree.  I'm still thinking about this.

If someone were to poke or tap me every time I expressed annoyance you can be darned sure it wouldn't stop me feeling annoyed! It would probably just make me even more pi$$y! Same for fear.

Well, when you're really, really scared, isn't one of the best strategies to combat that to think of something else? To sing a song, or to imagine you're in a better place, or something like that? I would imagine that's what we're trying to do by "interrupting" and more particularly by redirecting. Dog is freaking out, so you ask dog to focus on a "sit" command, dog is no longer thinking about the fear trigger but instead about sitting and receiving treats, and voila dog forgets he was supposed to be scared! That's my theory, at least. []

espence, since you didn't address my question, I'll pose it again for you:
 

From where do you get your information (scientific study or personal observation) that an alpha wolf (since we're talking pack dynamics) would ever interfere in a squabble between those of lesser rank? 

 
As far as the rest, I stand by my observations that growling IS an important part of dog communications and should not be squelched, especially in terms of inter-pack relations. 
 
I disagree with your opinion.
 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
If we are in fact talking about reactivity, that is an entirely different area.

Good point. When I "correct" a growl with an "eh-eh", it's because I know the growl reflects a situation that requires counter-conditioning. Instead of directing the dogs attention elsewhere, I want to help her reframe that experience and feel ok with it. I like to do this when I'm in a nonthreatening, controlled situation.

I would think of this as counter-conditioning, it's a mix of "Scaredy Dog" and Cesar Millan methods:
We walk by lots of fenced yards with barking/growling dogs. If Ixa and the dog make aggressive noises at each other, I say "Ixa, eh-eh", I redirect momentarily, for a sit, then I return her focus to the other dog by holding a treat for Ixa in a place that draws her gaze towards the other dog. I praise her for doing this calmly, watching her body language for actual calmness, not just obedience. Then we move closer to the other dog, who has, by now, usually calmed down, too. Then I stop treats and just hang out quietly for a minute or so, giving some praise to the dogs for being calm near each other. We've charmed 3 local yard dogs this way, and have ... oh, several dozen more on our list. [] LOL.

At other times, though, I take Ixa's growls as a sign that her boundary has been violated, or that she's in over her head, and I'll want to do more than redirect, I'll want to create safety, by moving us or addressing the aggressor.

Xerxes,

Please clairfy how the quote below does not answer your question. If he agrees with you, that "pack leaders dont care if 2 members fight", then what is your purpose in challenging him to provide you research on a wider topic of your personal interest, like wolf studies?

ORIGINAL: espencer
Yeap, pack leaders dont care if 2 members fight, i do, i'm the one that would pay for the vet or give an explanation to the other dog's owner, even when it was the other dog's fault, nobody likes to have his dog on a fight and you should do whatever you can to prevent it

ORIGINAL: Cita

If someone were to poke or tap me every time I expressed annoyance you can be darned sure it wouldn't stop me feeling annoyed! It would probably just make me even more pi$$y! Same for fear.

 
Well, when you're really, really scared, isn't one of the best strategies to combat that to think of something else? To sing a song, or to imagine you're in a better place, or something like that? I would imagine that's what we're trying to do by "interrupting" and more particularly by redirecting. Dog is freaking out, so you ask dog to focus on a "sit" command, dog is no longer thinking about the fear trigger but instead about sitting and receiving treats, and voila dog forgets he was supposed to be scared! That's my theory, at least. []

 
Good point.  Maybe the key is knowing what will work for each individual animal to successfully distract them and not antagonise them further.  I know that with me (for example) someone just saying "stop being moody" is a guaranteed way to MAKE me moody, or escalate my moodiness! 

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Xerxes,

Please clairfy how the quote below does not answer your question. If he agrees with you, that "pack leaders dont care if 2 members fight", then what is your purpose in challenging him to provide you research on a wider topic of your personal interest, like wolf studies?

ORIGINAL: espencer
Yeap, pack leaders dont care if 2 members fight, i do, i'm the one that would pay for the vet or give an explanation to the other dog's owner, even when it was the other dog's fault, nobody likes to have his dog on a fight and you should do whatever you can to prevent it

Because we're discussing pack dynamics. If a leader constantly interferes in the occasional spats of betas, then that upsets the pack order and makes the pack leader appear weak or unpredictable. So where is it justified, in pack dynamics studies that a leader interferes with small spats between pack members?

In the event that it is a pack member and a non-pack member, the non-pack member should be approached by the pack leader, either through redirection or through body blocking before things escalate beyond growling. The signs are there and they are easy to read.

***Content removed. Off topic, personal.**

Correction, the topic of this thread is growling, not pack dynamics. Of course, tangents will ebb and flow, but directed, highly focused tangents are disruptive. As always, if any one would like to have a focused discussion about an idea that comes up within a thread, you are free to start a new thread.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes


If a leader constantly interferes in the occasional spats of betas, then that upsets the pack order and makes the pack leader appear weak or unpredictable.  So where is it justified, in pack dynamics studies that a leader interferes with small spats between pack members?

Pack leaders on the wild do not intefere on member's fights, since they dont, then the only thing you can do is especulate on your statement of "that upsets the pack order and makes the pack leader appear weak or unpredictable", there is not prove in this world that is what actually happens

If one day you decide to stop the growl over and over and you see that indeed your dog starts seeing you as weak or unpredictible then you wont have especulations anymore []

I have done the exercise myself and i have not experienced my dog acting the way you describe towards me

Chuffy

What I was disputing was that interrupting the growl on its own would interrupt the state of mind.... I'm not sure I agree.

I don't think that interrupting the growl on its own does interrupt the state of mind.  The interruption just gives the owner time to deal with the issue that provoked the growl.  Dealing with that issue can change the dog's state of mind.

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

I don't think that interrupting the growl on its own does interrupt the state of mind.  The interruption just gives the owner time to deal with the issue that provoked the growl.  Dealing with that issue can change the dog's state of mind.

Cita has it right

ORIGINAL: Cita

Dog is freaking out, so you ask dog to focus on a "sit" command, dog is no longer thinking about the fear trigger but instead about sitting and receiving treats, and voila dog forgets he was supposed to be scared! That's my theory, at least.

As one who likes to listen to different points of view on dog behavior,I am finding it a bit disconcerting that members are having content removed before I can read it.I would like to read the post in full.

If nothing else,I would like to know why the content was removed.I don't know any of the posters all that well,but everyone has seemed pretty civil so far.I don't think this has strayed all that far off topic.Maybe its just me..

Ah, OK. I agree with this. I've always agreed with trainers/behaviorists who point out the importance of redirecting the state of mind as the goal, not just stopping the behavior. Successfully stopping the behavior would block/redirect the state of mind, but it's important for people to realize that this is what is going on, because the state of mind is driving the unwanted behavior, and clearing that state of mind opens up the dog to refocus on you, the handler, and give you the opportunity to tell the dog what you want it to do instead.

 
Bingo.
 
In which case, the growl is an important communication to alert that problem is present. So, my preference is not to squash the growl but to change the situation and state of mind to which the growl is a reference. That is, I don't want to stop the growl, in and of itself, but eradicate the need for the growl.
 
Which may mean that what Spencer does is not actually stopping the growl but it may appear that way. What he is wanting to do is refocus the dog on him, which stops the growl because he is handling the problem, rather than his dog handling the problem. Then, handle the problem so that another growl is not necessary.