on growling

I'm sorry, yeah it sounds a little bit confusing, i mixed state of mind with behavior for a second as Ixas pointed

When you interrupt the growling you stop the behavior AND the state of mind that comes with it, not only the sound but also the feelings the dog is having at that moment

For some people if you interrupt the growling the dog would still be annoyed, aggresive, etc. and thats not the case, when you interrupt the growling you are saying "i dont like the sound and the way you are feeling right now, there is not need for that"

If is another dog's the one that made the dog to growl then of course you need to address that dog behavior right away, if not the first poor dog will feel that his personal space should not be respected, with the example i gave, stop the growling AND remove the other dog from there, the first dog wont be disapointed of you since you toke care of it

If is another dog's the one that made the dog to growl then of course you need to address that dog behavior right away, if not the first poor dog will feel that his personal space should not be respected, with the example i gave, stop the growling AND remove the other dog from there, the first dog wont be disapointed of you since you toke care of it

 
I think I understand a little better what you are trying to say. And I empathize the problem you have in using a language that is not your primary language. Kudos to you for perservering.
 
It sounds more like you're saying when the dog growls, you give a command or sound that may seem like you are stopping the growl but what you are really wanting to do is re-direct the dog's attention to you and let you handle the scene. Where you might use Tsst or no, I would use sit and watch.
 
The other problem, which is logistical, is how to remove the other dog from the range of reactivity. How do you accomplish that? The owner of the other dog may not know even as much as you do.

When you interrupt the growling you stop the behavior AND the state of mind that comes with it, not only the sound but also the feelings the dog is having at that moment

Ah, OK.  I agree with this.  I've always agreed with trainers/behaviorists who point out the importance of redirecting the state of mind as the goal, not just stopping the behavior.  Successfully stopping the behavior would block/redirect the state of mind, but it's important for people to realize that this is what is going on, because the state of mind is driving the unwanted behavior, and clearing that state of mind opens up the dog to refocus on you, the handler, and give you the opportunity to tell the dog what you want it to do instead.

I would say that the act of making the sound is an outcome of the behavior, ie. im scared (this is the behavior) so i will growl to make you go away, or, i am annoyed (this is the behavior) so back off

So then you're saying that growling is an autonomic response?

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For clarity, I think we are all on the same page with respect to what to do, if anything with growling behavior.  Because I was not clear if it was ok for my dog to look at me when growling started regardless of the type.  They are doing tug of war and growling but they are tilting their head my way to see my reaction. 

ORIGINAL: espencer



I would say that the act of making the sound is an outcome of the behavior, ie. im scared (this is the behavior) so i will growl to make you go away, or, i am annoyed (this is the behavior) so back off

You dont know if the other dog will listen and back away or not, you need to interrupt the growling before it escalates in less that one second, if it is the other dog's fault (lets say not respecting personal space) then you are letting the dog know that he does not need to growl and you will take the "rude" dog away, if you dont interrupt the growling and you just go to take the "rude" dog away that is way too much time you are giving the situation to escalate

If you let the dogs "work it out" then you are failing on being the one applying rules boundries and limitations and your dogs cant trust you on being the one keeping peace on the pack, just like if police does not come during a street fight to let them work it out themselves, would you trust the police from now on? just like if a parent let his kids  fighting to work it out, would they trust the parent to set the rules or do they need to protect their back themselves?

Owners should not be "roomates" letting the dogs working it out, owners need to be leaders and let the dogs know "ok is rude not to respect personal space" or "ok it is rude if you take the other dogs food"

If you let them working it out, maybe this time it didnt escalate but meybe next it will

Stop the growl and there will be no maybes, that gives you time to address the situation and both dogs will know you are there to step up and they can relax knowing you are there to have a balanced pack

And no, i'm not including playfull growls here, those are fine

Wouldn't a pack leader deal with the interloper rather than discipline his pack member?

From where do you get your information (scientific study or personal observation) that an alpha wolf (since we're talking pack dynamics) would ever interfere in a squabble between those of lesser rank?

Dogs do not understand "rude."  You are anthropomorphizing dogs here.  Appropriate and inappropriate are better terms.  A puppy only learns these from interactions with it's mother and littermates, or other dogs.  If you counter that interaction with your own then you are in fact, decreasing the dog's communication abilities. 

Growling is a huge part of communication.  It is the second to last indication that something is going to happen.  Take the desire to communicate that away from the dog and you end up with a dog in a state of learned helplessness or one that is a fear biter.

If we are in fact talking about reactivity, that is an entirely different area.

Aw come on, you can't take the word "rude" away from me!  Whether you call it rude or inapropriate, its all the same to me. [sm=joker.gif]

ORIGINAL: ron2

It sounds more like you're saying when the dog growls, you give a command or sound that may seem like you are stopping the growl but what you are really wanting to do is re-direct the dog's attention to you and let you handle the scene. Where you might use Tsst or no, I would use sit and watch.

Yes, thank you, that was a better explanation, you interrupt the behavior, re direct your dog's attention to you and that gives you more time to think what to do next besides you decreased the level of escalation right away

ORIGINAL: ron2
The other problem, which is logistical, is how to remove the other dog from the range of reactivity. How do you accomplish that? The owner of the other dog may not know even as much as you do.

That would depend on too many things, depends if the other dog's behavior, before and during the incident, depends if the other dog came in an aggressive way, or is just calm but came a lot closer than expected, depend on the dog's body lenguage and what do i think it will happen if i do this or that, i'm not going to be between the 2 dogs if the other dog is showing his teeth, maybe i will even do something when the other dog is still 10 yards away and coming depending on his body lenguage, etc

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Wouldn't a pack leader deal with the interloper rather than discipline his pack member?

From where do you get your information (scientific study or personal observation) that an alpha wolf (since we're talking pack dynamics) would ever interfere in a squabble between those of lesser rank?

Dogs do not understand "rude."  You are anthropomorphizing dogs here.  Appropriate and inappropriate are better terms.  A puppy only learns these from interactions with it's mother and littermates, or other dogs.  If you counter that interaction with your own then you are in fact, decreasing the dog's communication abilities. 

Growling is a huge part of communication.  It is the second to last indication that something is going to happen.  Take the desire to communicate that away from the dog and you end up with a dog in a state of learned helplessness or one that is a fear biter.

If we are in fact talking about reactivity, that is an entirely different area.

Ron said it right, you are not giving discipline to your pack member, you are just re directing his attention and preventing it to escalate, THEN you deal with the "aggresor"

Yeap, pack leaders dont care if 2 members fight, i do, i'm the one that would pay for the vet or give an explanation to the other dog's owner, even when it was the other dog's fault, nobody likes to have his dog on a fight and you should do whatever you can to prevent it

The only way that your dog will have a learned helplesness is that if you redirect the growl but you dont address the "aggressor", if the other dog is on top of yours, obviously your dog is umcomfortable and you are like "let him do whatever he wants with you dont worry everything is fine" then that would suck for your dog

If you dont redirect the growl then there is a chance of you ending breaking up a fight, maybe even you needing stitches and having a real bad experience, everything for just not wanting to re direct a growl, i really dont want even the minumum chance of that

There is a lot more ways that a dog can communicate his feelings to others, redirecting the growl is not the end of his world, it helps you to prevent bad experiences, and you are letting your dog know that YOU are the one stepping up to the situation and that he can trust you

You are saying: "Not need to complain, i am here to help you with your problem, you can relax now", what do you think your dog rathers to see? that or you being like : "oh no dude, you are on your own"?

ORIGINAL: Liesje

When you interrupt the growling you stop the behavior AND the state of mind that comes with it, not only the sound but also the feelings the dog is having at that moment

Ah, OK.  I agree with this.  I've always agreed with trainers/behaviorists who point out the importance of redirecting the state of mind as the goal, not just stopping the behavior.  Successfully stopping the behavior would block/redirect the state of mind, but it's important for people to realize that this is what is going on, because the state of mind is driving the unwanted behavior, and clearing that state of mind opens up the dog to refocus on you, the handler, and give you the opportunity to tell the dog what you want it to do instead.

This makes much more sense to me.  So the state of mind (which is automatic too I'm guessing) is redirected by the correction but it's only "fixed" or "cured" by building the dog's confidence/socializing, etc.?

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

[sm=rofl.gif]   If "correcting" a dog's "state of mind" were as simple as interrupting a growl, dealing with aggression problems would be a lot simpler. 

Well thats exactly what you are doing when you correct a dog, yeap, is that simple

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

Sorry, but that makes no sense to me.  Growling is a physical behavior (coming from an estate of mind, interrupt the growl and you are interrupting the estate of mind).  The sound is just part of that behavior.  The motivation for that behavior can be anything from annoyance to aggression (that is the one that needs to be interrupted before escalates),

(the blue ink was added by me on respond of each sentence)

 
I'm responding to espencers blue ink.
 
How on earth does correcting a growl for annoyance stop the annoyance from escalating?  ?How does correcting a fear-growl stop the fear escalating?  You have lost me.
 
If someone were to poke or tap me every time I expressed annoyance you can be darned sure it wouldn't stop me feeling annoyed!  It would probably just make me even more pi$$y!  Same for fear.
 
Please explian?

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