on growling

Hi silverserpher,

I don't make the assumption that the dog is choosing to be anxious. In fact, it wouldn't matter to me whether she chooses it or just defaults to it, because either way I want to move her past it.

ORIGINAL: silverserpher
teaching your dog that the reaction isn't necessary as opposed to communicating that the reaction is inappropriate.

I'm not sure that a dog can differentiate between uneccessary and inappropriate. I simply want to communicate to her to not be that way (riled up, snarky) in this situation, rather, be this other way (sniffing, accepting). Since I follow the correction with praise for the correct behavior, I could call what I'm doing "redirection", I could call it desensitizing, or counter-conditioning, or just plain teaching! []

I agree with your wondering about making assumptions about what dogs feel/think. I try to be very thoughtful about that, too. But, at the same time, I don't think that dogs are all that complicated or mysterious. That said, I don't have a dog that plays poker, and I've never met one that does, though I've heard them described here on the forum. [] I can tell when my dog is on edge, and when she's decided to let it go, with or without growling, by looking at her body language. Do other dogs have a poker face - no stiffness, forward lean, twitch, hard stare, ... no tell to warn of an impending aggression? Do bites ever, really, come out of nowhere?

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy
Ala Cesar: Teach you dogs how to properly greet each other by not allowing face to face greeting, its not appropriate dog behavior remember? []

Yes, Swissy! [] My girl has learned to be good at sniffing the other guy's butt (instead of barking at his face [X(]), but we're still working on getting her good with having her own butt sniffed in a first meeting with another dog, on leash.

Growling and how to deal with it have been on my mind lately. Lucy has a growly sound that she makes when she's frustrated or excited. It sounds a lot like a "real" growl, but usually turns into a soft whine/yodel/woof thing that is her way of "talking." It always takes strangers by surprise and makes her sound like some vicious man-eater to humans, but so far other dogs seem to take it fine so they can apparently tell the difference. I've heard Catahoulas can vocalize this way and have noticed other hound-type dogs that also do it.

I think the main thing to remember with growling is that you have to look at the context of the growl and then redirect the reason for growling - no the growling behavior itself. The growl is just a symptom, you need to treat the actual problem. I don't "correct" Lucy's growl-talk, but I do ask her to "hush" just like when she barks too much. For "real" growls and determine the reason and adjust from there. If she's being guardy, I redirect her. If she's being defensive, I try to find a way to reduce the conflict she's feeling. Lucy is *extremely* outgoing, though, so defiensiveness is rarely an issue.

My response to growling depends on whether or not I believe the situation is mine to handle, or my dog's.  It is a matter of leadership, and what situations I "own."  On leash, out for a walk, I am in charge of safety.  I make an effort to teach my dog(s) that their job is to relax and follow my lead.  The flip side is that they need to have confidence that I am going to protect them, and I have to follow through and make good on that promise.

On the other hand, when dogs are off leash I think they have more freedom to communicate who comes closely, etc.  A growl to say "back off" or "get away from my bed" is not something I have any problems with.  It is communication. 

You should be identifying what the issue is and correcting that, not the growling per say.

 
I agree with this. Your goal is to have a dog who doesn't growl, not because you've taught the dog to not-growl, but because you've fixed the underlying cause for the growling. If you just get rid of the growling without curing the cause you may be in trouble.

ORIGINAL: Dog_ma
My response to growling depends on whether or not I believe the situation is mine to handle, or my dog's. It is a matter of leadership, and what situations I "own." On leash, out for a walk, I am in charge of safety. I make an effort to teach my dog(s) that their job is to relax and follow my lead. The flip side is that they need to have confidence that I am going to protect them, and I have to follow through and make good on that promise.

On the other hand, when dogs are off leash I think they have more freedom to communicate who comes closely, etc. A growl to say "back off" or "get away from my bed" is not something I have any problems with. It is communication.

[] Well said, Dog_ma!

ETA: I stumble through words so often. The way you distinguished on-leash and off-leash "duty" was personally helpful!

Point of order.  Although others may not mind, I would appreciate it if the moderator refraim from editorializing post.  I feel that all post have overlapped and deseverve the same applause. 

Thanks for your input, DPU, I, too, am enjoying everyone's posts! Those I agree with, and those that challenge or contradict my own assumptions. I'll take your observation as a kind acknowledgement that my opinion may not always be recognized as personal. A new dynamic I'll have to get used to. []

I also think it's great that you have just given kudos to everyone in the thread! Nice! [] People do often feel unappreciated when their input is not acknowledged. Everyone does deserve applause, so thanks for giving it! []

I think context is very important to this topic, as well as whether or not the dog is also demonstrating anti-social and/or aggressive intent towards other living beings.

Dogs use vocalizations to communicate with each other (and us), to show intent, and express themselves - along with posture, eye contact, and body positioning.

A play growl can sound pretty fierce, but when combined with playful body language while wrestling with another dog who has joined in the game willingly, it is harmless and all in fun. I even have a play growl. [8D]

When dogs are part of a group, a growl can be a form of communication between each other which says "leave me alone" or "this is mine". The growls, body postures, and body positioning are the ways dogs sort out things within a pack so that physical conflict to define the boundaries and rank may be avoided.

However, if a growl is part of an escalation into violence toward another living being, whether the dog is just anti-social, a bullying brat, a more fearful "I'm going to get you first", or beginning to lock on target, it's the escalation of intent which is actually being addressed, rather than the growl itself.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

However, if a growl is part of an escalation into violence toward another living being, whether the dog is just anti-social, a bullying brat, a more fearful "I'm going to get you first", or beginning to lock on target, it's the escalation of intent which is actually being addressed, rather than the growl itself.

As snownose says, that is why it is very important to read the body language of the dog during these episodes.  For me, having them look at me after a growl gives me the opportunity to prevent the escalation.  And I remind you, dog growls and then looks to see how it is received by the other dog and then watches reaction.  Escalation can only be a brief moment before you have a full scale attack on your hands.  Best to keep the growl warning intact and not surpress it.    IMO.

ORIGINAL: espencer

The dog does NOT link the correction with the sound he is making (growling), the dog will always link the correction with the behavior, therefore the correction is indeed addressing the underlying problem, that is the "feelings" the dog is having at that moment towards the reason (another dog, estranger, loud kids, etc) of that behavior

The act of making the sound is the behavior itself, is it not?

Growling is very rarely the first sign of discomfort within a dog.  However it is an effective communication tool that dogs use because it is very easily understood:  It translates from dog language to human language exceedingly well.

The first outward sign is a tensing of muscles, very discernable if you understand body language and know your dog.  Even further than that is an intense eye contact, both ears somewhat forward and a forward leaning posture. 

Those are the appropriate times to redirect, not correct.  People are slow to recognize very specific behaviors and warning signs-that serve to protect us and others.  Some people would correct those very same signs out of existence and then we're faced with either a shut down dog or a dog that bites "without provocation."  Either way I wouldn't want that type of a dog around my family.

I am one of the people that actively seeks to communicate with my dog.  I like getting direct feedback from the dog-whether in the form of a smile, a bark, a growl, a moan, body posture, etc.  I would hate to squelch that out of existence simply for the reason that a growl "sounds menacing."   Even my cat knows what a growl means-and she learned how to speak dog as an 8 yr old-and she obviously doesn't have the same brain power as humans do. 

Dogs will escalate the level of warning 3 or 4 times before they aggress.  Eye contact, posture, growl, air snap...If you want a great lesson in reading dog language, go to a dog park and just watch and learn.  They give clear indications of intent well before they perform a behavior.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

The act of making the sound is the behavior itself, is it not?

I would say that the act of making the sound is an outcome of the behavior, ie. im scared (this is the behavior) so i will growl to make you go away, or, i am annoyed (this is the behavior) so back off

You dont know if the other dog will listen and back away or not, you need to interrupt the growling before it escalates in less that one second, if it is the other dog's fault (lets say not respecting personal space) then you are letting the dog know that he does not need to growl and you will take the "rude" dog away, if you dont interrupt the growling and you just go to take the "rude" dog away that is way too much time you are giving the situation to escalate

If you let the dogs "work it out" then you are failing on being the one applying rules boundries and limitations and your dogs cant trust you on being the one keeping peace on the pack, just like if police does not come during a street fight to let them work it out themselves, would you trust the police from now on? just like if a parent let his kids  fighting to work it out, would they trust the parent to set the rules or do they need to protect their back themselves?

Owners should not be "roomates" letting the dogs working it out, owners need to be leaders and let the dogs know "ok is rude not to respect personal space" or "ok it is rude if you take the other dogs food"

If you let them working it out, maybe this time it didnt escalate but meybe next it will

Stop the growl and there will be no maybes, that gives you time to address the situation and both dogs will know you are there to step up and they can relax knowing you are there to have a balanced pack

And no, i'm not including playfull growls here, those are fine

espencer,

This part confuses me,

ORIGINAL: espencer
I would say that the act of making the sound is an outcome of the behavior, ie. im scared (this is the behavior) so i will growl to make you go away, or, i am annoyed (this is the behavior) so back off

I would call "I'm scared" or "I'm annoyed" an emotional state or state of mind. You're calling it behavior, so I'm curious what would be the state of mind in that situation, to you?

Thanks in advance for clarifying.

I was also confused by that.  To me, behavior is "the actions or reactions of a person or animal in response to external or internal stimuli."  so if growling is an action/reaction, how is it not a behavior?