on growling

The dog does NOT link the correction with the sound he is making (growling), the dog will always link the correction with the behavior, therefore the correction is indeed addressing the underlying problem, that is the "feelings" the dog is having at that moment towards the reason (another dog, estranger, loud kids, etc) of that behavior

Dont stop the growling and you are flipping a coin on having the situation escalete or not, the outcome could be too scary to just let the dogs resolve it by themselves, stop it every time and you will have way better odds on defusing the situation

Let the dog growl and you are letting your dog being aggressive, if you dont let him growl the you MUST also address the situation that is making him do it, ie taking away another dog that does not respect personal space, kids being rude at the dog, etc

I dont think no one ever has met a dog that went for the bite directly because he was having his growling corrected, if people says that then i can assure is only speculations, why i'm so sure? because what i wrote in the first paragraph

ORIGINAL: espencer

The dog does NOT link the correction with the sound he is making (growling), the dog will always link the correction with the behavior, therefore the correction is indeed addressing the underlying problem, that is the "feelings" the dog is having at that moment towards the reason (another dog, estranger, loud kids, etc) of that behavior

This is an interesting issue and always makes me scratch my head when it comes to corrections. At any given moment a dog is engaging in a variety of actions and experiencing a variety of mental states-----excited, frightened, sniffing, jumping, growling, etc. One of those actions or emotions becomes the target of our correction but only we are aware of which one we exactly aim to correct. My dog jumps---I correct the physical behavior of jumping but I have no idea what the state of mind is. My dog growls, well now I'm not correcting to correct the physical behavior---the growl, now my correction is aimed at the dog's state of mind. Meanwhile the dog could be thinking that I'm correcting him for standing too close to another dog for all I know. How can we be certain?

espencer

The dog does NOT link the correction with the sound he is making (growling), the dog will always link the correction with the behavior, therefore the correction is indeed addressing the underlying problem ...

Sorry, but that makes no sense to me.  Growling is a physical behavior.  The sound is just part of that behavior.  The motivation for that behavior can be anything from annoyance to aggression, but motivation is not a behavior.
 
The word "stop" is the confusion point in this discussion, so I am just not going to use it.
 
If a dog growls aggressively at another dog, then it is probably appropriate to interrupt the situation and redirect the attention of all the dogs involved.  A loud noise and some basic obedience commands will often do the trick.
 
However, the dog should in no way be punished for having growled.  You shouldn't yell, hit, throw things, etc., because you want the dog to growl the next time.  You never want the dog to go directly from "I'm mad" to a bite.
 
Teaching a dog not to growl by punishing him for doing it is very unwise.  Calmly interrupting and redirecting a dog when he growls aggressively is often appropriate.  Ignoring an adult dog that growls to discipline a puppy is also appropriate.

silverserpher

My dog growls, well now I'm not correcting to correct the physical behavior---the growl, now my correction is aimed at the dog's state of mind.

[sm=rofl.gif]   If "correcting" a dog's "state of mind" were as simple as interrupting a growl, dealing with aggression problems would be a lot simpler. 

The dog does NOT link the correction with the sound he is making (growling), the dog will always link the correction with the behavior,

I agree that this thread is more appropriate to discuss this issue. I take exception with this statement. I don't see where the proof is, other than this self-defined statement. Dogs don't think like humans do. So, after receiving a correction, they are most likely going to stop the behavior closest in time to that correction. A growl is a warning and is very important. Where we differ is how we respond to that warning. I take the growl, which is a warning, as a chance to re-direct or command a behavior for what I want. Also, by training in various circumstances of varying distraction and stimuli for the behavior I do want, I can command the behavior I do want in meeting another dog. If Shadow still doesn't like the other dog, the growl or even an air snap is a signal to me to manage the situation.

Or, ala Dunbar, it's possible that what seems to be aggression maybe one time or a way of dogs sorting each other out. For that, one should consult a behaviorist. Some dogs tussle once and settle on method of knowing each other, and others may never get along.

Since timing is very important, it is not always possible to correct later in the chain and assume that the dog understands that the correction was for the first behavior. Example, dog lunges after another in defense. Breaks off and circles and barks. Then human corrects. The dog does not assume that the correction was for lunging in self-defense. That was two or three heartbeats ago. The dog will just as likely feel corrected for disengaging and sounding an alert to a problem that needs resolution. In order to avoid correction, the dog may not disengage or signal an alert the next time, since, in his sequence of events, that was the last thing to get corrected. Just as it is possible to reward at the wrong time and inadvertantly reinforce the wrong thing, it is also possible to correct at the wrong time and punish the wrong thing.
 
Say, for example, your dog barks when someone is at the door. You command sit and they do so and you reward them. After a few times, in an example, the dog will bark at the slightest noise, knowing that you will command sit and give a treat. So, inadvertantly a behavior chain has been created where the dog, seeking a reward, finds things to bark at. In that same vein, a dog may feel corrected for something you hadn't considered and the original problem still exists, only now, the dog gives no warning, since that gets punished and the dog is trying to avoid punishment.
 

Growling is natural to the dog, I allow it and don't surpress it.  If you are successful in surpressing, it does not mean that you have changed things, only have shortened your reaction time to assess the situation and fix things.  Growling is offensive and defensive.  For my dogs and fosters, if growling occurs, the dogs immediately looks my way.  Thats the way I want it. 
 
This Saturday, I have just introduced a new foster dog to the pack.  There is a lot of vocalization and growling going on as they all reshape the pack.

Personally, I would not want a dog who did not growl. In a multidog house there are dogs roaming about and I can't be right next to them at all times, and a few times I've heard a growl coming from some other part of the house and find the boys having a bit of a stand-off, still at a point where it's easy to deal with--remove the bone of contention, redirect both dogs to other activities. The dogs give me a bit of information with the growl and I feel like I need that since I am not in either of their heads.

Neither growls when meeting unfamiliar dogs, but they do growl in situations that I think are totally appropriate. They growl at each other, rarely but they do, when they are about to have an issue. Marlowe growls at DH ever now and then too (though it's been a while because i think DH finally learned his lesson, which is the whole point of the growl) about being manhandled while in deep sleep. I wouldn't like someone doing that and Marlowe doesn't like it either and he lets you know. Conrad does not growl at humans and to be frank that does kind of wig me out a little bit because I know there are situations in which he is not at all happy with what is going on and I am a bit afraid that there won't be any warning if someone pushes him over the edge of his limits (not that I'd ever let that happen, but I'm not with him every second of the day). With Marlowe, I know he'll let you know and I know that between the growl and the next level for him is a pretty long way (he's never snapped or nipped, just the growl and then he waits for you to get the freakin picture and stop harassing him).

For a dog who was growling constantly at every other dog and snapping and lunging taboot, I'd desensitize a la click to calm/scaredy dog rather than correcting for the fear behaviors. I'm most assuredly anthropomorphizing but I know that if I was scared of something I'd want someone to slowly demonstrate that the thing is not scarey rather than just smacking me every time I whimpered or cried.

Yes, houndlove touched on this ... what about context?

My dog is learning to stop growling at other dogs, upon greeting, via "eh-eh", then praise for appropriate behavior. This has not extinguished her growling on other occasions, like, at the dog park, if another dog is being pushy.

Because of this, I feel that correcting her growl, in the context of meeting another dog, is correcting that feeling, or state of mind, of anxiety, rather than communicating to her that growling (possibly any and all kinds of growling) is a behavior to avoid at risk of punishment. I base this on the fact that only her greeting growling is diminishing, her ease with other dogs is increasing, and her growling in other contexts is not diminished.

How to explain that, then?

What if correcting growling in only some dogs is dangerous? Like dogs with high aggression levels.
What if correcting growls accross the board is risking supression? But, when taught in specific contexts it's productive and moves a dog out of an anxious state.

Isn't it just like in training a trick, like sit? The behavior you reinforce isn't generallized, you must proof it in various contexts for the dog to isolate the correct behavior? Wouldn't that be the same with growling? Why would dogs generalize growling corrections, but not a "sit" reinforcement?

So for me the question isn't *whether* the growl should be left alone, it's *when* and under what conditions the growl is useful, or harmful, then respond with those criteria ... so what are the criteria?

Janet, I like this:

If a dog growls aggressively at another dog, then it is probably appropriate to interrupt the situation and redirect the attention of all the dogs involved.  A loud noise and some basic obedience commands will often do the trick.
 
However, the dog should in no way be punished for having growled.  You shouldn't yell, hit, throw things, etc., because you want the dog to growl the next time.  You never want the dog to go directly from "I'm mad" to a bite.
 
Teaching a dog not to growl by punishing him for doing it is very unwise.  Calmly interrupting and redirecting a dog when he growls aggressively is often appropriate.  Ignoring an adult dog that growls to discipline a puppy is also appropriate.

This is an interesting question and one I've often wondered about myself.

Rascal used to be a pretty bomb-proof dog. Good with kids, good at the vet, the whole bit. For a while he lived in another household where he did not feel secure and strangers were coming and going frequently. I don't know what happened, but I can only imagine that they were not sensitive and respectful towards him as he started doing a lot of defensive growling, which then escalated to snapping. I quickly removed him from that household, but he learned the lesson - growl/snap = people take you seriously and leave you alone. So now even though his life has settled down I have an aggressive growler/snapper/biter on my hands. My best guess is that people did not respect the growl ("Oh, look at the cute little doggy! He thinks he's mean!") as Rascal now growls very briefly and then starts snapping.

I often wonder what I could have done to prevent this whole mess, other than keeping him away from that house. Should we have corrected him when he growled? Should we have backed off better (which might have reinforced the idea that if he growls he gets what he wants)? Or should we just have ignored him?

My trainer recommended the interrupt/redirect method whenever he growls at anyone for any reason. IMO, while growling at another dog might be an acceptable form of communication, I don't want my particular dog responding aggressively in any way towards any people. For us, I don't believe any growling at people is acceptable, so it's some really diligent interrupt/redirecting and then approaching the problem from other angles (NILIF, obedience training, desensitization) to address the root of the issue.

Sorry if that was rambling... I just woke up :-p

There are different kinds of growls.....one would be "the play growl", at times when my dogs play hard one could think it's a major fight, but all you see is rolling bodies and slobber.
Another situation I have seen  is the" get away from me and my bed growl", the other dog usually takes that as a warning and moves away....the one I would be concerned about is the stare down first and then a vicious growl......being able to watch the body language and read it is very important, in that situation I immediately jump in and re-direct, otherwise there would be trouble.
 
BTW., DPU, congrats on your new rescue.......let us know how it is developing.[] 

ORIGINAL: snownose

......being able to watch the body language and read it is very important, in that situation I immediately jump in and re-direct, otherwise there would be trouble.

 
This is key when looking into the make up of the situation.  Yes, dogs playing tug-o-war will growl.  Play can switch and that is why observation of body language is so important.  As a matter of fact, for my dogs a "growl" can be represented by many sounds.  A whine, a bark, or even a yelp. 

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

[sm=rofl.gif]   If "correcting" a dog's "state of mind" were as simple as interrupting a growl, dealing with aggression problems would be a lot simpler. 

Well thats exactly what you are doing when you correct a dog, yeap, is that simple

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

Sorry, but that makes no sense to me.  Growling is a physical behavior (coming from an estate of mind, interrupt the growl and you are interrupting the estate of mind).  The sound is just part of that behavior.  The motivation for that behavior can be anything from annoyance to aggression (that is the one that needs to be interrupted before escalates),

 
(the blue ink was added by me on respond of each sentence)

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Because of this, I feel that correcting her growl, in the context of meeting another dog, is correcting that feeling, or state of mind, of anxiety, rather than communicating to her that growling (possibly any and all kinds of growling) is a behavior to avoid at risk of punishment. I base this on the fact that only her greeting growling is diminishing, her ease with other dogs is increasing, and her growling in other contexts is not diminished.

Isn't this based on the idea that the dog is "choosing" a particular feeling or state of mind based on context?  I'd assume (yep I'm assuming) that state of mind in reaction to a stimulus is automatic.  You can hopefully manage the response by desensitizing your dog to certain situations---teaching your dog that the reaction isn't necessary as opposed to communicating that the reaction is inappropriate.

Using leash corrections for growling will still initially put the dog in the lead in problem situations and communicates a lack of control on the part of the owner rather than "leadership".

You should be identifying what the issue is and correcting that, not the growling per say.  My dog is a resource guarder and anytime he comfy anywhere he will growl when approached.  But continually redirecting his behavior by calling him off his resource first and then sitting their myself and calling him back as an invitation - I have taught him not to guard form me.  If I leashed him and corrected him when he growled that would have been a bad situation. 

Ala Cesar:  Teach you dogs how to properly greet each other by not allowing face to face greeting, its not appropriate dog behavior remember? []