on growling

ORIGINAL: ron2
Bingo.

In which case, the growl is an important communication to alert that problem is present. So, my preference is not to squash the growl but to change the situation and state of mind to which the growl is a reference. That is, I don't want to stop the growl, in and of itself, but eradicate the need for the growl.

Which may mean that what Spencer does is not actually stopping the growl but it may appear that way. What he is wanting to do is refocus the dog on him, which stops the growl because he is handling the problem, rather than his dog handling the problem. Then, handle the problem so that another growl is not necessary.

I wholeheartedly agree.

As an example, Sasha and I went to a dog beach at a lagoon last week.  As we made our way to an empty section of the beach, we had to pass a few dogs.  They came up for sniffies, and one started being a bit pushy and obnoxious.  Sasha growled and curled her lips.  I said in a cheerful, but calm voice: "Ok! Let's go." and Sasha walked off with me.  I didn't mind Sasha telling the other dog to back off (and later I saw him terrorizing a small breed dog, chasing it in circles) but I did want to remind Sasha that I am able to handle "security" and that no escalation was needed, or acceptable. 

I wasn't redirecting Sasha's growl, but I was redirecting her focus while solving the "problem."

I wasn't redirecting Sasha's growl, but I was redirecting her focus while solving the "problem."

 
I have done the same in similar situations. And I don't care to leave him in a situation where growling at another dog is necessary. We walk on. What I do expect is for him to listen to me and follow me, as I will take us away from confrontation.

I did want to remind Sasha that I am able to handle "security" and that no escalation was needed, or acceptable.

And, that's exactly what leaders do - handle security. []

At the risk of getting into a stupid argument, I would venture to say that this issue has as much to do with your personal relationship with your dog than context. The way I see it, my dog is not a helpless baby and she knows what she's doing. Until that other dog doesn't back off when she growls, she doesn't need me to protect her. I'm quite proud that she doesn't need me in 90% of her interactions with other dogs, regardless of the level of aggression involved. She's a big girl and she can largely look after herself. I like that she doesn't feel she needs me to take charge of every situation. If she sees a strange dog when we're having a run on the beach, I let her decide if it's approachable or not. If she feels she suddenly can't deal with it by herself, she'll come running back to me and only then I consider it my business. If she were less confident or more dependent on me, her problems might be my problems more often.
 
The only time I've felt inclined to stop a growl and the aggression behind it was when she was growling at another dog she lives with in an attempt to get to his dinner. In that case, I step between the two dogs, facing mine, and force her back by stepping into her space and blocking her with my legs. Once the eye contact is broken and the distance between the dogs is safer, I tell her to sit and be quiet. What I'm doing is telling her that I want her to stop staring at the other dog when he's eating his dinner and I won't let her have his food and sit down and be polite instead. That's a whole chain of connected behaviours. However, I can't tell her not to want food that belongs to other dogs. Similarly, I can't tell her not to be concerned when a strange dog gets too close for her comfort, or not to get cross when a dog shouts nasty things at her from the other side of a fence. I've tried telling her these things in the past and she seems to flatly disbelieve me. In the end, I figure, she's a well socialised dog and she seems to know what she's doing much better than I ever could. Sometimes I think people should trust their dogs more. Rabbits have this hierarchy based on whoever has been a rabbit the longest, which puts humans at the bottom straight off the mark. I think it's not such a bad setup, because who knows what's best for rabbits better than someone who's been one for a long time? Of course, sometimes people know best, but maybe we should acknowledge that we don't always know best and there are times we should let our animals tell us what's best for them.

ORIGINAL: corvus
If she feels she suddenly can't deal with it by herself, she'll come running back to me and only then I consider it my business. If she were less confident or more dependent on me, her problems might be my problems more often.

Hi corvus,

Did she come to you like that, or would you say a couple of things about how you developed that relationship?

ORIGINAL: corvus
Rabbits have this hierarchy based on whoever has been a rabbit the longest, which puts humans at the bottom straight off the mark. I think it's not such a bad setup, because who knows what's best for rabbits better than someone who's been one for a long time?

LOL! I personally enjoyed the writing in your post! []

If she sees a strange dog when we're having a run on the beach, I let her decide if it's approachable or not. If she feels she suddenly can't deal with it by herself, she'll come running back to me and only then I consider it my business

 
And we're all striving for the same thing, too. To have them return to us rather than go and meet or escalate the provocation. Though it's important for all dogs, IMHO, it is extremely important for those of us with big dogs. I'm willing to bet my dog can do more damage than a Welsh Pembrook Corgi. Not that he would want to. And I'm going to make sure it's not going to happen. And continue training so that he will turn to me, more often than not. And every dog is different. Shadow's old friend Duke was a JRT and he could lord it over Shadow, 4 times his size. OTOH, Shadow would go after my parents'-in-law old Lhasa Apso and I'm not going to let them sort it out and decide what to do. Then, again, with other humans, Shadow may bark an alert, circle, then stand or sit by me in the heel position.
 
Sometimes, I have to step in, other times I don't.
 

You're right, Ron. My point was, my relationship with my dog is such that I don't often need to step in because she's got it covered and we rarely meet a dog that doesn't respect a growl regardless of the size of the dog. Other people have very different relationships. With Shadow, your concern might be that he would hurt a smaller dog, whereas with Penny I find myself fearing that her judgement might be off and she'll be the one to get hurt. The temptation with a small dog is always to step in before one needs to because we perceive danger where our small dog doesn't. I also have the luxury of having a dog that is easy going and has good common sense, so if a dog looks a bit aggressive, she doesn't go near it. Other dogs see that as a challenge and then you might need to step in more often before fights break out. It all depends on your dog and your relationship with your dog.
 
Ixas, Penny is an old dog that I've had since she was a puppy. She's like that mostly through experience. She's lived with a lot of different dogs and met a lot of different dogs. She learnt that big dogs back off when you snap at their noses because I wasn't there to chase the big dog off before it got into her personal space. I think dogs are like any other social species. We teach our kids to be polite and respect other people's space, but just because we teach them doesn't mean everyone else teaches their kids, and we can't always be there to protect kids from rude or socially inept kids. Part of being a balanced person is learning how to deal with people who are rude, aggressive, pushy, or merely oblivious. I think the same goes for dogs and they should be given the opportunity to learn how to deal with the social misfits out there. We can't always be there to protect them and why should we? They usually know better than we do how to deal with doggy social misfits anyway. And by taking it upon ourselves to regulate every canine encounter, we presume to know what's going on in the dogs' heads. Better, I feel, to be realistic and accept that we don't know what our dogs are thinking and just try to understand when they tell us.
 
All that is from the perspective of a person with an experienced, well-socialised, easy-going dog, though. I totally acknowledge that I've got it easy! My easy dog is a good teacher, though. She doesn't often need my help, so I'm free to trust her and sit back and watch her do her thing.[] You can get a lot of amazing insights by trusting that your animals know why they behave the way they do.

Several good points. Rather than just quote your entire message, I'll just say I agree that dogs can regulate each other, and other times, not. And that you have a really smart dog.[]

I'd love it if Sasha were as calm about things as Penny.  Unfortunately, she has had some bad experience with being attacked, and so ANY obnoxious or confrontational behavior from other dogs upsets her.  She, at least right now, needs my involvement.  

If she sees a strange dog when we're having a run on the beach, I let her decide if it's approachable or not.

 
I don't like it when another dog approaches mine if I don't know them/their owner.  I don't know that your dog is well socialised.  I don't know whether your dog is UTD with his vaccines or whether you take care to de-flea and worm him.  There are far too many unhealthy and un-socialised dogs around for me to take the chance that she probably is.  Further, often they think their dog is friendly and socialised whereas my dogs think theirs is just plain rude.  I much prefer it when the other owner recalls their dog, asks me if theirs can play with mine and then lets them go.  Sadly this almost never happens.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

I much prefer it when the other owner recalls their dog, asks me if theirs can play with mine and then lets them go.  Sadly this almost never happens.

 
Yeah, there's the rub. Penny's had her share of nasty encounters, but oddly it didn't seem to rattle her much. For a while there, she was pretty nervous around large dogs and would tend to be overly protective of her personal space. With time, she met some nice big dogs and after meeting a particularly calm Samoyed whose fur delighted her, she decided that big dogs weren't all bad. These days, she can handle herself around them. I admit that I get nervous and am often tempted to hurry her away from a strange dog, but it occurred to me that she very rarely seemed to want to be rushed away. We met a few dogs that I judged to be dangerous and she judged to be just a little tense. Circumstance had it that I was unable to rush her away and it was only then when I was trying to work out what to do that I thought to look at Penny and discovered that she seemed to think there was no real danger. Turned out she was right and I was wrong. That happened a few times and I decided that I should watch her as much as I watch the approaching dog. It will probably make me sound like I don't care enough about my dog's safety, but I've come to the conclusion that in our area at least, the only strange dog to truly fear is the charging one. Any other strange dog hasn't committed to an aggressive action yet, so there's a good chance it doesn't want to fight and therefore will respect my dog's warning growls. I have never seen a strange dog pick a fight over warning growls. In fact, Penny has bitten the noses of a number of big dogs getting in her face and that's never started a fight, either. In fact, even Pyry getting uppity about a boy dog checking out his girls doesn't start fights with strange dogs, and he can get quite antagonistic about it.
 
My dog is always up to date with her shots and can apparently talk her way out of just about any tense encounter with a strange dog except for strange dogs on their own territory. I don't think that's special to her. She's just a regular dog with plenty of dog experience and no desire to get into violent arguments. I think most dogs are like that, really.

And not all growling is about aggression or even a warning. I was watching a documentary that happened to show a sled dog team. Shadow was emitting a low growl with "punctuation" in it. That is, articulated, as if he was talking. It wasn't the kind of growl he might use before going into keep away barking. He was watching the t.v. and "expressing" something.
 

A lot of the bully breed puppies growl when they play, which horrifies other dog owners until they "get it".  And, my Sioux growls in a different way, "punctuated" if you will, when she reaaaaaally has to go pee and I've been preoccupied. []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

A lot of the bully breed puppies

 
Wait, are you saying that some dogs were breed to bully? i didnt know there is a breed for that, even if there is not, do you really think dogs bully? for fun? or for what?

Sasha a growl that I call a grumble, which she either gives in complaint or excitement.  (IE, if someone she knows is at the door, she may switch from barking to her excited growl.) Her grumble is quite distinct from her serious growl.

She also has a growl that is reserved for play.  It is a version of her serious growl, but a "fake" version and the difference is clear.