Dealing With Aggression Without Punishment

I think there's a huge difference between a dog showing his belly and throat over a look and because they were physically placed by human hands in that position.

And then, of course there's the belly in the air waiting to be rubbed. Something we humans can offer that other dogs don't.
 
ETA: And Floyd has ever since given Tasha plenty of respect, but it hasn't changed his behavior toward other dogs a whit, and Tasha doesn't care about that. He prefers to be a dominant dog, just not around her.

Okay, I probably should let this go....but my point was...you either began or added to a bite history.

To a handler, this is bad.

To a trainer,

it is bad bad bad bad.,,

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: JM

I think it's called misplaced aggression.

Wait...I think I got that wrong.

Redirected Aggression: This is a relatively common type of aggression but one that is often misunderstood by pet owners. If a dog is somehow provoked by a person or animal he is unable to attack, he may redirect this aggression onto someone else. For example, two family dogs may become excited, and bark and growl in response to another dog passing through the front yard; or two dogs confined behind a fence may turn and attack each other because they can't attack an intruder.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

. For what ever reason, at that moment  the GSD came up from behind and gave me four severe puncher wounds to the back of the leg.

I know exactly what your talking about, how this was more pack mentallity aggression. Like I said it's the short version.

Speaking of short...I'm...outta here.
FriiiiidAY!!!

ORIGINAL: Stacita

I think there's a huge difference between a dog showing his belly and throat over a look and because they were physically placed by human hands in that position.

Regardless...when done correctly by those that understand it...it works.

And then, of course there's the belly in the air waiting to be rubbed. Something we humans can offer that other dogs don't.

Ok?

ETA: And Floyd has ever since given Tasha plenty of respect, but it hasn't changed his behavior toward other dogs a whit, and Tasha doesn't care about that. He prefers to be a dominant dog, just not around her.

Others dogs didn't...put him in his place...so. And others dogs aren't a part of your pack, so what's your point?

ORIGINAL: JM

Okay, I probably should let this go....but my point was...you either began or added to a bite history.

To a handler, this is bad.

To a trainer,

it is bad bad bad bad.,,

I...don't begin or add to any bite history. So perhaps you can clarify what your saying here.

And others dogs aren't a part of your pack, so what's your point?

 
Ummm....Actually I have three dogs and sometimes other dogs are here. The point is that assertive behavior by one dog only changes the behavior toward that one dog. Perhaps that might be true with human intervention. If a "trainer" causes for whatever reason the dog not to be aggressive toward them via using a forceful method, are they sure that all others can manage the same methods?

ORIGINAL: Stacita

And others dogs aren't a part of your pack, so what's your point?

Ummm....Actually I have three dogs and sometimes other dogs are here. The point is that assertive behavior by one dog only changes the behavior toward that one dog. Perhaps that might be true with human intervention. If a "trainer" causes for whatever reason the dog not to be aggressive toward them via using a forceful method, are they sure that all others can manage the same methods?

Um??? I'm sorry...what?

My thoughts would be that using something like Turid Rugaas' Calming Signals has the potential of re-wiring the whole brain. First the dog is rewarded when they just make the signals. Secondly the dog gets a secondary reward by having more pleasant interactions both through food and through the interactions themselves. They have decreased stress.
 
The use of force tends to only change the behavior toward the persons or dogs that uses it. It may be successful sometimes, but I don't think it re-wires the brain into enjoying compliance and therefore isn't as consistent.
 
Have you read/studied Calming Signals? If so what did you think about it?

I find often that..."In the field of psychology " they get it...wrong.

Just who is they?  And, does this mean you are indicting the same field that gave you operant conditioning (which, oh-by-the-way includes theorizing on the nature of negative reinforcment and positive punishment as well...) 

awsomedog
[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: Stacita

[blockquote]quote:

And others dogs aren't a part of your pack, so what's your point? [/blockquote]

Ummm....Actually I have three dogs and sometimes other dogs are here. The point is that assertive behavior by one dog only changes the behavior toward that one dog. Perhaps that might be true with human intervention. If a "trainer" causes for whatever reason the dog not to be aggressive toward them via using a forceful method, are they sure that all others can manage the same methods?
[/blockquote]

Um??? I'm sorry...what?

I hope I'm paraphrasing correctly, as I don't want to speak for someone else, but I think the gist of this is that trainers who use coercive methods, then hand the dog back to the owners, supposedly "rehabbed", have some sort of moral obligation to assess whether the owner can handle maintenance, and to properly warn about the consequences of not doing so.
As for me, I'm not using coercion, but I certainly make the point to owners that aggression does not go away, you are just elevating the threshold for what triggers it.  The dog may never have another incident, or he may.  That, in a nutshell, is one of the things that makes it difficult to work with aggressive dogs, skill levels aside.

awsomedog
 quote:  I don't need a dictionary to know some humans think they know more about dogs...than dogs do.

Ah, at last, something we can agree upon. []

ORIGINAL: Stacita

My thoughts would be that using something like Turid Rugaas' Calming Signals has the potential of re-wiring the whole brain. First the dog is rewarded when they just make the signals. Secondly the dog gets a secondary reward by having more pleasant interactions both through food and through the interactions themselves. They have decreased stress.

The use of force tends to only change the behavior toward the persons or dogs that uses it. It may be successful sometimes, but I don't think it re-wires the brain into enjoying compliance and therefore isn't as consistent.

"Force" is not the tool to "re-wire the brain", it takes many things combined to rehabilitate a dog.

Have you read/studied Calming Signals? If so what did you think about it?

Have you ever heard the term, submissive domination? If so...what do you think of it. My guess is few will know what it is.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Ah, at last, something we can agree upon. []

Anne Anne Anne, what's there to say to you, you who often hide behind smoke screens, like your..."Macho Trainers" post. At least when I'm talking about someone I address them. So...who are they? THEY are the ones who get it wrong...vs those who get it right.[]

Have you ever heard the term, submissive domination? If so...what do you think of it. My guess is few will know what it is.

 
Since I don't think you are referring to the leather, whips and chains circles, I'm not clear about the term. Do you have links or books to recommend?

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Ah, at last, something we can agree upon. []

Anne Anne Anne, what's there to say to you, you who often hide behind smoke screens, like your..."Macho Trainers" post. At least when I'm talking about someone I address them. So...who are they? THEY are the ones who get it wrong...vs those who get it right.[]

Nice to know I'm not "they".  Thanks for the clarification.

ORIGINAL: Stacita

My thoughts would be that using something like Turid Rugaas' Calming Signals has the potential of re-wiring the whole brain. First the dog is rewarded when they just make the signals.

I've read her book, I see the signals in my dog, and also make them to her, to calm her.

CM calls for calm submissive dog. Such a dog would display calming signals. My dog is reactive, not aggresive, and she is less reactive when she is displaying fewer of these calming signals.

Could this mean that calming signals operate differently for reactive dogs than aggressive dogs? And yet differently for dogs who are neither aggressive nor reactive?

Calming signals are not a technique, they are a category of behaviors that dogs display in order to avoid conflict. Dogs are masterful at the art of social harmony, which is why aggression is such a sad, human-induced perversion of who and what dogs really are.

The first of the articles linked on the subject was using clicker training to reward the calming signals in a dog. I would consider that a technique. Rugaas also rewarded her dog for using the signals around other dogs to prevent dog/dog hositilities.
 
It sounds like your dog is reacting from fear/nerves and that this wouldn't be necessarily the right thing for her. Perhaps things that increase confidence would be more beneficial.  So yes, I'd agree that different dogs have different reasons for using the signals.  Wolfgang, our bombproof dog, uses them frequently not out of fear, but out of a sense of, "Hey let's get along." when he's around new dogs or dogs that tend to be difficult. He also does this with people, signaling that whatever they want is OK with him.

Not only to avoid conflict but to calm themselves.  When I was working on Zeus' self control issues, he would use them to get himself under control at the gate.

He would yawn to get his excitement under control so he could focus on the sit/stay.  Or he wouldn't get out the gate for his walk.

Calming signals are not a technique, they are a category of behaviors that dogs display in order to avoid conflict. Dogs are masterful at the art of social harmony, which is why aggression is such a sad, human-induced perversion of who and what dogs really are.