Dealing With Aggression Without Punishment

And if PUNISHING a dog is all you wish to discuss then that takes me out of the discussion

 
Yes it IS all I wish to discuss on this thread, because that is the title of the topic.  If you do not want to talk about PUNISHING dogs then why did you join the discussion?
 
I have already stated my views on the differences between corrections and punishment on another thread and I'm not repeating myself here.
 

  WHAT??? I lay the dog on it's side and you see that as punishing...BUT! And I'll quote..."I've seen owners respond to their dogs aggression by yanking on the lead, lifting their front legs off the floor, smacking them.... and in the long term, they have no effect on the dog's aggression whatsoever.  I see what they are doing as ineffective and sometimes cruel.... And because it has no long term impact on the animal's behaviour, I do not see it as punishment.  They are just reacting badly to unwanted behaviour." But you don't see yanking, smacking, or hanging...as punishment...because..."it has no long term impact on the animal's behaviour"??? I admit...you've stumped me and I don't even know how to respond to that.

 
OK, I was trying to clarify it for you with some examples.  To you, punishment is a term with emotional connotations and one used by "The Positive Crowd" to make correcting a dog sound cruel and nasty.  To me, and (this is the important part) to many other people, it is not.  Punishment = something applied to the environment to make the animal less likely to repeat the given behaviour.  Therefore, to my mind, what you did to the dog who came at you was punishment - it worked, it stopped him doing it again.  The owners who react badly, are harsh, inconsistent and ineffective with their dogs are not punishing them, because as I said, I observe that it does not make the dog less likely to repeat his actions... if anything some of them screw it up so bad that the dog is more likely to repeat the behaviour. 
 
This is a thread on dealing with aggression without punishment... if you don't believe that can be done, could you give some examples of what has worked for you and what you have observed fail?  spiritdogs suggested a case history and I do think that would be really interesting and more productive than where this thread is going currently.  I have encountered few cases of really bad aggression and I'm interested in the ways of dealing with it - with and without punishment. 

Ever so no to your dogs Chuffy? And if you do, do you go running around saying your...punishing them? Also if someone gives their dog a leash correction and the dog ignores it, (it didn't work) what do you call what they just did?  Anne gave a case history? Did she answer how it would be done. Because I stated how I handled a dog that bit me. I asked you one, and you've yet answer it.

ETA What have I seen fail? Professionals using treats trying to rehabilitate a truly aggressive dog.

I just did a quick search for a definition and came up with this on wikipedia.... this is what I have been talking about when using the P-word.... Maybe I'm on my own there.  Just to clarify, most people (I think) are talking about positive punishment (some abbreviate it to P+) when they talk about punishment.  The emboldened part is my doing, I wanted to draw attention to this bit, because I think it might help clear up any misunderstanding.
 

  
In the field of [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology]psychology[/link] punishment has a more restrictive and technical definition. In this field, punishment is the reduction of a behavior via a stimulus which is applied ("positive punishment") or removed ("negative punishment"). Making an offending student lose recess or play privileges are examples of negative punishment, while chores or [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking]spanking[/link] are examples of positive punishment. The definition requires that punishment is only determined after the fact by the reduction in behavior; if the offending behavior of the subject does not decrease then it is not considered punishment. There is some [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflation]conflation[/link] of punishment and [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversives]aversives[/link], though an aversive that does not decrease behavior is not considered punishment.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

I just did a quick search for a definition and came up with this on wikipedia.... this is what I have been talking about when using the P-word.... Maybe I'm on my own there.  Just to clarify, most people (I think) are talking about positive punishment (some abbreviate it to P+) when they talk about punishment.  The emboldened part is my doing, I wanted to draw attention to this bit, because I think it might help clear up any misunderstanding.

  
In the field of [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology]psychology[/link] punishment has a more restrictive and technical definition. In this field, punishment is the reduction of a behavior via a stimulus which is applied ("positive punishment") or removed ("negative punishment"). Making an offending student lose recess or play privileges are examples of negative punishment, while chores or [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking]spanking[/link] are examples of positive punishment. The definition requires that punishment is only determined after the fact by the reduction in behavior; if the offending behavior of the subject does not decrease then it is not considered punishment. There is some [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflation]conflation[/link] of punishment and [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversives]aversives[/link], though an aversive that does not decrease behavior is not considered punishment.

Yep...I've read that before LOL and still think it's funny. Tell a child who was just spanked (weather it worked or not) that they weren't just punished. Tell a child in time out (weather it worked or not) that they weren't just punished. I find often that..."In the field of psychology " they get it...wrong.

I think once again there are emotional, real world, and technical meanings to the words "punish" and/or "punishment".
 
Inside the Skinner Box and in operant conditioning terms Chuffy gave the definition of "positive punishment" according to Skinner's terminologies.

But dogs do not live inside of a box and there was no one in the Skinner Box with the subject. In the real world, in the social world of canines, there is a communication between one pack member to another for their pack harmony and mutual survival.

If the dog does not view you as their leader, something in the relationship must change. It is not natural for a follower to discipline, correct, or instruct a leader, and these social interactions do not exist inside of a box, IMO. 

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog


Ever so no to your dogs Chuffy? And if you do, do you go running around saying your...punishing them? Also if someone gives their dog a leash correction and the dog ignores it, (it didn't work) what do you call what they just did?  Anne gave a case history? Did she answer how it would be done. Because I stated how I handled a dog that bit me. I asked you one, and you've yet answer it.

ETA What have I seen fail? Professionals using treats trying to rehabilitate a truly aggressive dog.

 
Strangely enough no I don't say No to them!  []  I see it as a rather vague word and I like to be specific. 
 
If someone gives a correction and it is ignored, then it is just that; a correction, and an ineffective one.  It's not punishment.
 
As to why I have not given you a case history - if you look back at my previous posts you'll see that I have encountered few dogs with extreme aggression and as I am not a professional trainer I am not in a position to "deal" with it (ie, make it go away).  And you have stated quite clearly that you deal with "real life" not hypothetical situations, so I felt I would be wasting my time.  Also, I felt that the tone of your question was rude and challenging rather than in a genuine spirit of interested enquiry and I chose to ignore it. 
 
If ever I do become a trainer, I hope to be a positive one who achieves success without force or conflict.  I remember reading J Fennell (probably back in the 90s now, ages ago anyway) and I recall that she dealt with several cases of severe aggression where the animal was in danger of being PTS.... if I remember correctly she did this without ever resorting to violence or force, even in the most mild form, such as you described in pinning the dog until it relaxed.  She achieved success through a combination of positive reward based training and social learning, sending "leadership signals" without ever coming into direct confrontation with the animal.  So I am guessing that I would try something along those lines, beginning the same way she did - and the same way I have sometimes seen CM begin too - that is, "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" - letting the animal see that you are no threat, but that you are also a strong and competent leader who is worthy of trust.  What do you do when you first enter a clients home with a severely aggressive dog?

Well said Angelique.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy





 Also, I felt that the tone of your question was rude and challenging rather than in a genuine spirit of interested enquiry and I chose to ignore it.

Nope...it was ment as a actual question. It is your feelings towards me that cloud your judgement, which is why you see it the way you do.

I have sometimes seen CM begin too - that is, "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" - letting the animal see that you are no threat, but that you are also a strong and competent leader who is worthy of trust.  What do you do when you first enter a clients home with a severely aggressive dog?

About the same.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy


Strangely enough no I don't say No to them!  []  I see it as a rather vague word and I like to be specific. 

Oh...and I'd love to know what you mean by that statement. Please explain or give a example.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Chuffy


Strangely enough no I don't say No to them!  []  I see it as a rather vague word and I like to be specific. 

Oh...and I'd love to know what you mean by that statement. Please explain or give a example.

 
A foster dog came to me with the name Noah.  It took a milisecond to decide to change that name.  Could that be the reason he was in the shelter world?

I really liked the Pryor article regarding how to use the clicker in conjunction with Rugaas' calming signals. It made a lot of sense as did the original book, which is one of my favorites.

Is it not true that if your thinking like a dog that another dog "alpha rolling" them---just to clarify---making another dog lay on it's side to show submission--would only be done in a dire situation, life or death? The dog would be essentially trying to tell the other dog, "I could kill you." I've been hearing how extreme this act would be in the dogs eyes if done by another dog since I got my dog.

 
Tasha did this with Floyd when he first came to live here. They'd met on neutral territory with no problem, basically ignored each other, but the second he came in the yard, it happened. There's no physical way Tasha would be able to force this situation on Floyd. She's never done it before or since with any dog, and I have no idea what doggie discussion happened. She has never been in a fight with another dog.
 
In actuality her teeth never touched him. He gives her respect and never crowds her space. That was years ago and the two have never had a conflict since. They play well together.
 
So, I'd never let a human try to replicate this with my dog. In the first place, she did not physically force him into submission. There's much that is missed by humans when they physically try to be dogs.
 
I very much liked your NILF post. You and Willow are an excellent example of the effectiveness of that method.

ORIGINAL: Stacita

Tasha did this with Floyd when he first came to live here. They'd met on neutral territory with no problem, basically ignored each other, but the second he came in the yard, it happened. There's no physical way Tasha would be able to force this situation on Floyd. She's never done it before or since with any dog, and I have no idea what doggie discussion happened. She has never been in a fight with another dog.

In actuality her teeth never touched him. He gives her respect and never crowds her space. That was years ago and the two have never had a conflict since. They play well together.

Proves my point, it wasn't about one dog trying to kill another dog, it was a show of who's who.

So, I'd never let a human try to replicate this with my dog. In the first place, she did not physically force him into submission. There's much that is missed by humans when they physically try to be dogs.

If your dogs aren't aggressive...why would anyone want to do it to them? And yes force was used, the force of body language that dogs understand. So do some of us humans.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Chuffy


Strangely enough no I don't say No to them!  []  I see it as a rather vague word and I like to be specific. 

Oh...and I'd love to know what you mean by that statement. Please explain or give a example.

A foster dog came to me with the name Noah.  It took a milisecond to decide to change that name.  Could that be the reason he was in the shelter world?

I don't know why the dog ended up in a shelter, but I do know...that doesn't answer my question to Chuffy.

I agree. ...My understanding is that an alpha roll (in dog world)  is not something that is forced, but is something that is offered.

And I can't help but think that it has to do with personality.  Some personalities are confident and independent. Some are easy go lucky...like hey, this doesn't matter all that much to me...not enough to get all radical about it.

 Mine would fight to the death before he would belly up. As I bet would Willow.

Mine didn't go through some of the stuff that Miss Willow went through.  We are his only family.  But I see some of the same characteristics.  Which leads me to the possibility that Willow would have had this personality no matter.

In my mind it is not always a defect.  Just a matter of personality.




 

Tasha did this with Floyd when he first came to live here. They'd met on neutral territory with no problem, basically ignored each other, but the second he came in the yard, it happened. There's no physical way Tasha would be able to force this situation on Floyd. She's never done it before or since with any dog, and I have no idea what doggie discussion happened. She has never been in a fight with another dog.

In actuality her teeth never touched him. He gives her respect and never crowds her space. That was years ago and the two have never had a conflict since. They play well together.

So, I'd never let a human try to replicate this with my dog. In the first place, she did not physically force him into submission. There's much that is missed by humans when they physically try to be dogs.

I very much liked your NILF post. You and Willow are an excellent example of the effectiveness of that method.

ORIGINAL: JM

I agree. ...My understanding is that an alpha roll (in dog world)  is not something that is forced, but is something that is offered.

It is "offered" for a reason. The force of the other dogs body language.[]