Dealing With Aggression Without Punishment

Dealing With Aggression Without Punishment.

Bad behavior should be corrected, and if some *humans* have a hard time with that because of their *human* emotions, and want to call it..."punishment"...whatever. We started doing this with children awhile back and look where that's got us. Now we want to do it to dogs...great. Even a *dog* knows and corrects another dog for bad or unwanted behavior. But...here's a bunch of *humans* thinking they know more about dogs...than dogs do. And people wonder why I laugh.

You even almost say as much in another thread with this statement.

If a pup has been pulled from the litter early, socializing him with other puppies and some safe adult dogs, who can tell him off nicely, is really critical to his development.

The person calling it "punishment" is not necessarily an "emotional human" who has a "problem" with the dog receiving corrcetions.  It is just as likely (if not more likely) to be a scientifically minded person using the correct term for something that decreases the likelihood of a behvaiour being repeated. 
 
Why should "bad behaviour be corrected"?  It seems that you are applying *human* morals to dogs, who are not moral creatures.  If a method deals effectively with a behaviour (and aggression is just another behaviour) then brilliant.  If it does not involve punishment (and I use that term in it's scientific context) then fine, so long as it still works.  It's not like I see a need to apply retirbution to an animal (I fail to see the point) I just want nuisance behaviour or dangerous behaviour to cease.

most aggression in dogs is either resource guarding or some kind of fear-based  behavior. Punishing dogs for exhibiting these behaviors is very likely to make the aggression worse.

Lets take a close look at your statement.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

The person calling it "punishment" is not necessarily an "emotional human" who has a "problem" with the dog receiving corrcetions.  It is just as likely (if not more likely) to be a scientifically minded person using the correct term for something that decreases the likelihood of a behvaiour being repeated.

First you say that, which I find very funny because you say..."a scientifically minded person"...meaning a *human* who thinks they know more about dogs than dogs. Secondly saying  "punishment" makes it sound so much more  dramatic than saying correction. A tactic used often by the R= and clicker crowd.

Then you follow that with this.

Why should "bad behaviour be corrected"?  It seems that you are applying *human* morals to dogs, who are not moral creatures. 

First off...NO...I'm not "applying *human* morals to dogs", because as I've stated about a million times...even dogs will correct other dogs for unwanted behavior. A fact it seems many *humans* and now the "scientifically minded" seem to...not understand. 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
most aggression in dogs is either resource guarding or some kind of fear-based  behavior. Punishing dogs for exhibiting these behaviors is very likely to make the aggression worse.

That is only true if your clueless as to how to fairly correct a dog.

If you have not actually studied, and successfully tried, operant methods that don't involve physical correction, then it is unlikely any of us will convince you that it does work.  So, why are you over here doing what you accuse us of and "beating a dead horse"?
Dogs are not human, and positive trainers absolutely do realize it.  Humans are not dogs, and cannot correct them with the lightning speed and subtlety that dogs are capable of.  We are clumsy at best, and at worst, we do exactly what mudpuppy suggested can happen when we are inevitably inadequate at it.  Until you grasp the difference between "shut down" to learning, and "turned on" to learning, these concepts will escape you (I am not referring to anyone in particular - this is the colloquial "you").
What I don't understand is how yank & crankers never get the concept of installing an alternative or new default behavior, rather than simply punishing the undesired behavior - and leaving the dog to do what if he is again presented with a particular and unusual set of possible triggers?

Here's a scenario.  You have a dog that you cannot even get close enough to touch.  How do you "punish" that dog?

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

most aggression in dogs is either resource guarding or some kind of fear-based  behavior.

IMO, most aggression in dogs is caused either by:

Frustration - Due to a lack of exercise, mental stimulation, and challenge in the dog's daily life which is appropriate for that dog's specific needs.

Instability - Due to confusion or insecurity in the dog because the dog is either not provided with calm, fair, trustworthy leadership, is provided with no leadership, inconsistant leadership, or is getting mixed  "pack position" signals from various members of the family the dog is living with, so the dog has no clue as to "who is who" and where do I fit in.

Lack of social skills and spoiling the dog rotten, can also be a factor.

Abusing a dog can cause aggression and mistrust. 

I find far too many folks diagnosing aggression as "fear based", where often it simply does not apply. IMO

spiritdogs

While I hate days in the office, this certainly makes it more fun. #1. I love your selective memory. I've studied all techniques that are out there, I understand them and don't care if you think I do or not. It's why I know what works and what doesn't, and I use what does. #2. I'm not "over here doing what you accuse us of and "beating a dead horse"?". This is NOT the clicker section, or did you not know that?

Here's a scenario.  You have a dog that you cannot even get close enough to touch.  How do you "punish" that dog?

"PUNISH...PUNISH...PUNISH"!!! I love it. LOL Um...and why am I PUNISHING lol this dog to begin with? And why can't I get close to it. I've never met a dog I couldn't get close to.

These debates seem to get pretty heated, so I'm always hesitant to even step in with my limited experience, but here goes.  When we rescued Sassy, a 2 yr old 75 lb lab, she had a serious mouthing problem.  If she was excited, she would nip at your heels and/or jump up and bite your arm.  I would turn to her and say in a stern voice "no bite" and keep on walking, but she'd just come after me again.  If I tried to walk away, she just continued her behavior, but then she started acting aggessively.  She'd bare her teeth and almost chatter at me.  Only because I was at a loss for what to do, I changed tactics.  When she'd do the mouthing or nipping, I'd stop, call her to me, ask her to sit and then praise her.  Not only did it calm her down, but it taught her to obey for a positive reason.  It worked perfectly and when we eventually met with a behaviorist because the fights between the 2 dogs, she agreed that using anything other than positive methods with a fear aggressive dog like Sassy, would be futile or even dangerous.

Frustration - Due to a lack of exercise, mental stimulation, and challenge in the dog's daily life which is appropriate for that dog's specific needs.

Instability - Due to confusion or insecurity in the dog because the dog is either not provided with calm, fair, trustworthy leadership, is provided with no leadership, inconsistant leadership, or is getting mixed "pack position" signals from various members of the family the dog is living with, so the dog has no clue as to "who is who" and where do I fit in.

Lack of social skills and spoiling the dog rotten, can also be a factor.

Abusing a dog can cause aggression and mistrust.

I find far too many folks diagnosing aggression as "fear based", where often it simply does not apply.

 
 
hmm. Most "Frustrated" dogs I've met haven't turned to aggression. They may destroy the house, develop complusive behaviors, and drive their owners crazy, but rarely does frustration lead to aggression. Unless you're talking about Barrier aggression, where the dog runs up and down going nuts because there's a fence in his way.
 
Instability, well, unfortunately most dogs live in chaotic, unstable households, have no idea what their inconsistent owners want them to do, are given little if any leadership, and again, it doesn't seem to be a situation that commonly leads to aggressive behaviors.
 
Lack of social skills can certainly lead to aggression-- by fear. The undersocialized dog is usually terrified of other dogs or strange humans, and may decide "to get them before they get me".
 
Spoiling dogs leads to spoiled dogs, not aggression.
 
Think about the more common incidents of aggressive behavior:   trying to take something away from the dog or trying to move the dog off of a piece of furntiture-- resource guarding.
grabbing at dog's collar when dog is highly aroused by something. This is simple reactivity based in fear-- dog is highly aroused and misinterprets "the grab" as an attack.
Biting kids faces. This is often caused by rude, inappropriate behavior by the kids. And often the dog doesn't even mean to be aggressive, he's just "disciplining" the kid with a tooth-whack that wouldn't injure a puppy. This IS caused by "lack of leadership" since the humans should be the ones disciplining the kids and keeping the dog safe.
We also have territorial aggression-- dog goes after intruder, which I consider to be perfectly appropriate behavior we humans deliberately bred into our dogs.

ORIGINAL: cakana
 It worked perfectly and when we eventually met with a behaviorist because the fights between the 2 dogs, she agreed that using anything other than positive methods with a fear aggressive dog like Sassy, would be futile or even dangerous.

Sounds like you used what worked for you and your dog. As far as what your behaviorist said...doesn't make her...*right* or *wrong*, it just makes it...her opinion.

I've never met a dog I couldn't get close to.

Ego clouds judgement.

I can only talk about my own experience. I found that my own dog's aggression really aroused my ego, and I responded in a similar, "bad behavior must be punished" kind of way. And this approach escalated my dog's aggression very quickly.

I got much further with my aggressive dog when I dropped the corrections (and the ego) and started working with a clicker trainer that specializes in aggression. She gave me good strategies for really being a good leader, and rising above the power struggle I was engaged in.

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

I've never met a dog I couldn't get close to.

Ego clouds judgement.

So does...not understanding. My ego has nothing to do with...facts. And the fact is...I haven't met a dog yet I couldn't get close to, so why would I say otherwise? Perhaps it was...your "ego" and the corrections you were doing that were your problem. Corrections done wrong...will cause problems.

even dogs will correct other dogs for unwanted behavior.

 
true enough, they do correct other dogs sometimes. What does that have to do with humans? I'm completely incapable of  delivering a "tooth whack", or a "roar-bark". If I try to give a warning growl at my dogs they think it's funny. If it came down to a physical fight I'd lose badly.  Not to mention that dogs only correct other dogs for engaging in dog-inappropriate behavior. Most behaviors that humans want to correct dogs for are highly dog-appropriate behaviors, they just don't happen to be desired by the humans. Much better approach is to teach the dog how to behave appropriately around humans. For example, most dogs love to bite other dogs in play.  If all  you do is "correct" your dog for play-biting you, he may stop biting you, but he'll never figure out how to play with you appropriately unless you show him. Might as well just skip the corrections and go straight to showing him how you want him to behave, it's just as effective with less wear and tear on you and the dog.