Dealing With Aggression Without Punishment

which I find very funny because you say..."a scientifically minded person"...meaning a *human* who thinks they know more about dogs than dogs.

 
This definition is sweeping and inaccurate and I don't understand where you have drawn it from.  Could you clarify?  Is this a barb aimed at myself?
 
I don't see what "dogs correcting dogs" has to do with it quite frankly. 
 
Your words were:

 Bad behaviour should be corrected

 
WHY?
 
If it is possible to deal with the aggressive behaviour without "corrections" (read: punishment) then why should corrections still be used? 
 
Also, by saying this, are you suggesting that trainers who choose not to use punishment are wrong?  This kind of seems to go against your "not all ways work for all dogs, do what works for you" philosophy that I have seen you express on other threads?
 
For what it is worth I don't see what never meeting a dog you counldn't get close to has to do with ego.  Such dogs are not exactly common in my experience.  I'm stabbing in the dark here but I'm guessing most of us haven't met a dog like that.  I think spiritdogs asked the question hypothetically and I would be interested to see your answer.

even dogs will correct other dogs for unwanted behavior.

 
In our case, our other dog (5 yrs older than Sassy), wasn't able to correct her either.  Those attempts were often what caused a fight. 

Dogs are not human, and positive trainers absolutely do realize it. Humans are not dogs, and cannot correct them with the lightning speed and subtlety that dogs are capable of. We are clumsy at best, and at worst, we do exactly what mudpuppy suggested can happen when we are inevitably inadequate at it.

A freaking men.

I have seen a dramatic, complete turn around in Emma, in the two years that I've not been physically correcting her. The harshest thing I do, now (short of an actual bloody dog fight) is make a loud noise to change the attention ("HEY!") to me, from the bad behavior. Emma is a soft, sweet, easily handlable dog. Before I was issuing leash corrections and worse, for bad behavior. She was unpredictable and very, very scary. The last good bite she did was on a coworker's FACE. She has nipped a vet, since then, but she was in a LOT of pain, and it was a pretty fair nip, IMO. You can't expect a dog in so much pain it can't walk to not bite when it's legs are being manipulated.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

even dogs will correct other dogs for unwanted behavior.

true enough, they do correct other dogs sometimes. What does that have to do with humans? I'm completely incapable of  delivering a "tooth whack", or a "roar-bark". If I try to give a warning growl at my dogs they think it's funny. If it came down to a physical fight I'd lose badly.

I can't help but think...some people ask questions just to be silly, and this is one of those times. But ok...I'll bite.[] My point was...even dogs understand the *concept* of correction. #1. Your fingers (like a pinch collar) can be used like a "tooth whack". #2. What is a..."roar-bark"? #3. If your dog "thinks it's funny" when you give a "warning growl" it's because the dog does take you seriously. Why? Because your dog reads and knows you better than you know your dog. And why...would you or anyone for that matter..."physically fight" they dog?

Not to mention that dogs only correct other dogs for engaging in dog-inappropriate behavior.

Not true, biting is a natural behavior, which is at times corrected by booth humans...and dogs alike. You study much dog behavior?

Most behaviors that humans want to correct dogs for are highly dog-appropriate behaviors, they just don't happen to be desired by the humans.

That's because pets...live in a human world, and must learn to do so, unless you think it's ok for your dog to poop and pee all over your carpet, as well as chew and destroy your house.

 

Much better approach is to teach the dog how to behave appropriately around humans. For example, most dogs love to bite other dogs in play.  If all  you do is "correct" your dog for play-biting you, he may stop biting you, but he'll never figure out how to play with you appropriately unless you show him.

Dogs and puppies may "love to bite other dogs in play." but they know who in the pack they should and should not do this too. And if one bites the mother, a higher ranking member, or the pack leader a little to hard...they will be corrected. Also I'm not a *dog*, I'm the dogs master, I don't allow my dogs to mouth or bite me period...and we play fine.

Might as well just skip the corrections and go straight to showing him how you want him to behave, it's just as effective with less wear and tear on you and the dog.

I do teach (show) my dogs how to behave...and!...I also correct unwanted behavior.

All I can say is that I agree with those who realize that there is no place for correcting aggression in dogs. I don't have to defend the position, those of us who have done it, knows why and how it works. [] 
 
Those who think it's the be all and end all, will continue to do it, and if they are lucky, they will never be bitten. If they are unlucky, well, if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes.
 
Let's get back to the point of the discussion, however, and that is HOW you can treat aggression without punishment. Great articles!
 
Kim
 
- who will laugh as she watches the humans attempt to raise their hackles, curl their lip, raise their tail, and perk their ears forward, because THAT is how most dogs punish other dogs. Growling and physical contact are last measures, not first ones.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

which I find very funny because you say..."a scientifically minded person"...meaning a *human* who thinks they know more about dogs than dogs.

This definition is sweeping and inaccurate and I don't understand where you have drawn it from.  Could you clarify?  Is this a barb aimed at myself?

It's not a barb directed at anyone, and it's very accurate.

I don't see what "dogs correcting dogs" has to do with it quite frankly.

That's odd, because the statement explains itself.

Your words were:

 Bad behaviour should be corrected

 

WHY?

Please...lets not be silly.

If it is possible to deal with the aggressive behaviour without "corrections" (read: punishment) then why should corrections still be used?

Easy, because some aggression is not possible to change without correction. And onlt those who deal with extreme aggressive cases can debate this fact with me, other wise your guessing. And I don't live by...what if's.

Also, by saying this, are you suggesting that trainers who choose not to use punishment are wrong?  This kind of seems to go against your "not all ways work for all dogs, do what works for you" philosophy that I have seen you express on other threads?

But I didn't say people are wrong for not correcting thier dogs, it's their dog, it's their choice.

For what it is worth I don't see what never meeting a dog you counldn't get close to has to do with ego.  Such dogs are not exactly common in my experience.  I'm stabbing in the dark here but I'm guessing most of us haven't met a dog like that.  I think spiritdogs asked the question hypothetically and I would be interested to see your answer.

The problem is, I (again) don't deal in what if's (hypotheticals). I deal with real life.

ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d

Dogs are not human, and positive trainers absolutely do realize it. Humans are not dogs, and cannot correct them with the lightning speed and subtlety that dogs are capable of. We are clumsy at best, and at worst, we do exactly what mudpuppy suggested can happen when we are inevitably inadequate at it.

Yep...I not a dog, but I certainly know how to give one a correction that they understand. IMPO That's most peoples problem, they don't know how...therefore in their mind...it must not work.

A freaking men.

I have seen a dramatic, complete turn around in Emma, in the two years that I've not been physically correcting her. The harshest thing I do, now (short of an actual bloody dog fight) is make a loud noise to change the attention ("HEY!") to me, from the bad behavior.

Um...if what your doing is working, why are you having "actual bloody dog fights"? And I never said every correction has to be physical. If a sound correction works...why not use that?

Emma is a soft, sweet, easily handlable dog. Before I was issuing leash corrections and worse, for bad behavior. She was unpredictable and very, very scary. The last good bite she did was on a coworker's FACE. She has nipped a vet, since then, but she was in a LOT of pain, and it was a pretty fair nip, IMO. You can't expect a dog in so much pain it can't walk to not bite when it's legs are being manipulated.

I wouldn't correct a dog for being in pain, who does that???

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

All I can say is that I agree with those who realize that there is no place for correcting aggression in dogs. I don't have to defend the position, those of us who have done it, knows why and how it works. []

"I don't have to defend the position"[] Of course you don't, that's the easy way out. And it sounds like the typical...human knows best agenda.

I'll ask anyway. So you deal with highly aggressive dogs?

I'll ask anyway. So you deal with highly aggressive dogs?

 
Well, I don't make a living at working with aggressive dogs, no (at least not yet), but I did have the fate of my arm in the jaws of a GSD three weeks ago at the boarding kennel I work at. I have successfully been able to make friends with dogs who have basically hated the entire world except their owners. I've broken up very, very serious dog fights, including having to physically pry the jaws open of one dog to remove it from the other's neck. I worked with an 8-9 week old puppy with serious idiopathic human aggression. I share my life a girl who lives with strong fears of strangers, who would have been a grand fear biter if I hadn't worked to prevent that from happening from a young age.
 
So yes, I can safely say I've dealt with aggressive dogs.

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

I'll ask anyway. So you deal with highly aggressive dogs?

Well, I don't make a living at working with aggressive dogs, no (at least not yet), but I did have the fate of my arm in the jaws of a GSD three weeks ago at the boarding kennel I work at. I have successfully been able to make friends with dogs who have basically hated the entire world except their owners. I've broken up very, very serious dog fights, including having to physically pry the jaws open of one dog to remove it from the other's neck. I worked with an 8-9 week old puppy with serious idiopathic human aggression. I share my life a girl who lives with strong fears of strangers, who would have been a grand fear biter if I hadn't worked to prevent that from happening from a young age.

So yes, I can safely say I've dealt with aggressive dogs.

 And so now these dogs you've "dealt" with are no longer aggressive? Just because you've "successfully been able to make friends with dogs who have basically hated the entire world except their owners." doesn't meen you've...changed their behavior, so we're really not even talking about the same thing. I can show most people how to approach and make a somewhat aggressive dog ok with them. I believe what we're talking about here is actually changing a dog from being aggressive. Also...and correct me if I'm wrong, but most boarding kennels reject really aggressive dogs. So I'm not really sure as to what level of aggression your even talking about, or what you understand about the different types and levels of aggression.

So I'm not really sure as to what level of aggression your even talking about, or what you understand about the different types and levels of aggression.

 
I understand a LOT about aggression, thanks very much. I am very familiar with aggression and have studied it in a lot of depth. I understand there are different types, and different bases for, and different strengths of aggression.
 
What I do know is that this dog left deeply rooted bruises up my arm for two weeks, with major swelling and throbbing pain. I would like to say that if I didn't have three layers of clothes on, it would have been much worse.
 
What I can also say is that by the time the dog left, the dog was no longer at all aggressive to me (still quite anxious, but not aggressive). So yes, I would have to say in that time period, it worked. I can't say if it will work forever, and that it will work for the next person, because it's not my dog and I'm not working long term with it. But that fact is it worked, and if it was continued, it would continue to work.
 
I don't know how you can say I haven't changed their behaviour. The dogs were aggressive with other people. The dogs become NOT aggressive with me. I'd certainly like to say that was a modification of behaviour!
 
I don't personally care what 'level' the aggression is. You don't have to use punishments and corrections to help fix the problem, no matter the level. Plain and simple.

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

So I'm not really sure as to what level of aggression your even talking about, or what you understand about the different types and levels of aggression.

I understand a LOT about aggression, thanks very much. I am very familiar with aggression and have studied it in a lot of depth. I understand there are different types, and different bases for, and different strengths of aggression.

What types of "studies" were theses?

What I do know is that this dog left deeply rooted bruises up my arm for two weeks, with major swelling and throbbing pain. I would like to say that if I didn't have three layers of clothes on, it would have been much worse.

For those of us who have been in bite suits, we'll tell you that five layers of clothing won't protect you from a dominant aggressive dog.

What I can also say is that by the time the dog left, the dog was no longer at all aggressive to me (still quite anxious, but not aggressive). So yes, I would have to say in that time period, it worked. I can't say if it will work forever, and that it will work for the next person, because it's not my dog and I'm not working long term with it. But that fact is it worked, and if it was continued, it would continue to work.

Then the answer is...no...you didn't modify the dogs behavior, you simply got the dog to like you. The goal of modifying the behavior...means you...make it go away. I know a lot of rescuers that can get some aggressive dogs to like them, but no one else. The does not make a rehabilitated dog. So for someone who's "very familiar with aggression and have studied it in a lot of depth." You seem to be missing something.

I don't know how you can say I haven't changed their behaviour.

Because over all...you haven't! Again, you only got a dog to like...you. That's not the same as rehabilitating a dog.

The dogs were aggressive with other people. The dogs become NOT aggressive with me. I'd certainly like to say that was a modification of behaviour!

Yes I know you'd like to, but the truth is...you can't. Well, actually...you can say what ever you please.

I don't personally care what 'level' the aggression is. You don't have to use punishments and corrections to help fix the problem, no matter the level. Plain and simple.

That's you opinion...not a fact...plain and simple.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

which I find very funny because you say..."a scientifically minded person"...meaning a *human* who thinks they know more about dogs than dogs.

This definition is sweeping and inaccurate and I don't understand where you have drawn it from.  Could you clarify?  Is this a barb aimed at myself?

It's not a barb directed at anyone, and it's very accurate.

You are stating this as fact.  Please could you back it up as such?  Or is it just your opinion?

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

I don't see what "dogs correcting dogs" has to do with it quite frankly.

That's odd, because the statement explains itself.

No it doesn't.  Dogs do correct other dogs.  I fail to see what that has to do with this discussion?  Why do you think that it is necessary for humans to correct dogs just because dogs do?  While dogs may correct other dogs, it does not always result in the dog avoiding repeating that action in the future.  This is the purpose of punishment and the point of the discussion - see OP. 

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Your words were:

 Bad behaviour should be corrected

 

WHY?

Please...lets not be silly.

Please don't patronise me.  If you are not going to answer a question and do so civilly, don't bother to reply.  It is not a silly question.  It is a most pertinent question.  If it is not for retribution (which would be applying human morals to dogs as stated earlier) then why do it if it is not necessary? 

The problem is, I (again) don't deal in what if's (hypotheticals). I deal with real life.

Let me re-phrase:  So, in real life, have you never met a dog with that level of aggression?  Or have you met a dog with that level of aggression and successfully dealt with it?  If it is the latter, would you explain how you managed to get near the dog to punish it for aggression when no one else could? 

Dogs correct dogs, humans CAN correct dogs just like dogs do, those humans who can not then can turn into another technique

I am not saying that then those otrher humans are inept, those humans just dont feel they have the personality of step up the way a dog would do, other humans on the other hand know how to step up, these people dont step back from the dog's signs of agression BUT they know what they are doing and what to not do to avoid an accident

70% of the correctins are pshycological by just showing the dog that his signs of aggression wont make you step back (not steping back does not mean have an attitude of "hey i'm here you mofo, what are you going to do about it?" not at all, is just not steping back), by just showing you dont step back the dog realizes you are confident about yourself, the more confident you are the more chances you have that the dog will stop his behavior beacuse he knows his signs dont work, the dog would likely attack IF he sees that he has chances to win since he could realize the person is not confident enough

If you dont have that type of personality i agree to look for another technique, thats does not mean you are more or less than anybody else but if you dont know what you are doing with an aggressive dog then you could get in trouble

It is not a "macho" techique at all and is not wrong either since the dogs actually do it that way, the humans who practice it actually have an advatage by knowing more about dog phsycology than the actual dog does, the human knows what to do, what not to do, how to approach, how not to approach, etc

Some other people dont feel confortable doing that and decide to take another "less natural" (since dogs don t use clickers to eachother) route, thats fine, they get themselves out of trouble that way but not because humans take the other "more natural approach" that means is wrong, if it is then all dogs are wrong when they correct eachother

Spoiling dogs leads to spoiled dogs, not aggression.

 
 
I have seen spoiled dogs that learned to rule the house and became aggressive, when a spoiled dog bites due to lack of discipline it is a form of aggression.