Dealing With Aggression Without Punishment

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

While dogs may correct other dogs, it does not always result in the dog avoiding repeating that action in the future.  This is the purpose of punishment and the point of the discussion - see OP. 

Actually it does indeed results with the dog stoping the behavior, if he doesnt then is like me saying: "clicking to sit not always results on the dog sitting", what are you going to tell me? "well thats because you might be doing it wrong" since you know a dog can sit down with a clicker when you do it right
 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

hmm. Most "Frustrated" dogs I've met haven't turned to aggression. They may destroy the house, develop complusive behaviors, and drive their owners crazy, but rarely does frustration lead to aggression. Unless you're talking about Barrier aggression, where the dog runs up and down going nuts because there's a fence in his way.

 
Thats because they havent come to that point yet, humans dont need to be dogs to know that if the frustration gets too far then it becaomes aggression, thats with dogs, humans, bears, lions, etc

What types of "studies" were theses?

 
Excuse me? What you said makes no sense. I said I studied aggression, I didn't say I created studies. As in, I learned about aggression. You know, studying? Like in school?
 

  For those of us who have been in bite suits, we'll tell you that five layers of clothing won't protect you from a dominant aggressive dog.

 
I didn't say it was a dominant aggressive dog. This was not a dominant dog at all actually. But it didn't make it any less aggressive. And five layers of clothing won't protect you from a dog with no bite inhibition, or a dog that intends to kill you. But there are varying depths of aggression, as you said, and it doesn't make a dog that didn't break skin any less aggressive - it just made the outcome less painful. I thank gosh the dog had good bite inhibition.
 

  Then the answer is...no...you didn't modify the dogs behavior, you simply got the dog to like you. The goal of modifying the behavior...means you...make it go away. I know a lot of rescuers that can get some aggressive dogs to like them, but no one else. The does not make a rehabilitated dog. So for someone who's "very familiar with aggression and have studied it in a lot of depth." You seem to be missing something.

 
You aren't making any sense. I certainly did modify that dog's behaviour. Modify simply means to change. Nothing more. To modify behaviour, is to change it. So I changed the behaviour from what I didn't like, to what I liked. How is that not modifying?
 
If I was making a behaviour go away, I would be causing extinction to occur. Two different things there. Perhaps you need to brush up on your skills.
 
And I never said the dog was rehabilitated. Please don't insert random words when they weren't there to begin with. I said I modified the dog's behaviour to me. And that's just what I did.
 

  Because over all...you haven't! Again, you only got a dog to like...you. That's not the same as rehabilitating a dog.

 
Again, the word rehabilitation never appeared in my speech anywhere. You made that up. What I said was that I modified the dog's behaviour. Which I did.
 

  Yes I know you'd like to, but the truth is...you can't. Well, actually...you can say what ever you please.

 
Yes, as can you it appears, because you seem to be creating new definitions for words that already have established meanings.
 
Modify = change. Not extinguish.
 

  That's you opinion...not a fact...plain and simple.

 
That is my opinion. It also just happens to be a fact. So, I guess we're both right. []
 
As I said, I don't have to defend anything. This is precisely why I wasn't going to go any further, because you are an expert at making circular discussions in the "I have to be right" category. Everything you say comes back to "It's your opinion, not fact". At the very least I can say that you can modify behaviour with corrections (even though I never would do it), I'm amazed that you can sit there and claim that you can't do it without corrections, when thousands and thousands of trainers worldwide are doing that very thing right now, and by golly, they are succeeding!. But then again, like I said, I don't live in the "I have to be right" camp, I have the ability to admit that you can potentially do it both ways.
 
Since there is no apparent ability for anybody to have a say in this discussion, except for, well, you, to me the discussion is over. I shall contribute no more to baiting and go on my way, and practice the great role of ignoring unwanted behaviours. [] Good day to you!

I also think it is very questionable whether we really can emulate the way dogs deliver corrections and I am not sure whether that was suggested by A-dog.... he just said, dogs correct each other, so there is nothing wrong with humans corrceting dogs too.  That was how I understood it.  Whether we can emulate dog's corrcetions and whether we should is, IMO, a) dependant on the dog, b) dependant on the human and c) completely off topic. 
 
Espence, clicking never results in my dogs sitting.  If it did I would have been doing it wrong.  You are right in that if you weren't getting any results I'd ask, right what did you do?  And try to figure out where you got it wrong.  However, when one dog corrects another, and it does not impact on future behaviour, you can't say to me "well you didn't do it right".  That makes no sense.  I have observed many times where the dog being "corrected" only stops at that moment.... he goes back and does it again later, or the next day.  But that too is straying off topic....

ORIGINAL: Chuffy


You are stating this as fact.  Please could you back it up as such?  Or is it just your opinion?

Fact; Dogs know more about dogs than humans do.

No it doesn't.  Dogs do correct other dogs.  I fail to see what that has to do with this discussion?  Why do you think that it is necessary for humans to correct dogs just because dogs do?  While dogs may correct other dogs, it does not always result in the dog avoiding repeating that action in the future.  This is the purpose of punishment and the point of the discussion - see OP.

My point...Because dogs understand correction

Please don't patronise me.  If you are not going to answer a question and do so civilly, don't bother to reply.  It is not a silly question.  It is a most pertinent question.  If it is not for retribution (which would be applying human morals to dogs as stated earlier) then why do it if it is not necessary?

Not patronising. I though and think it is silly (that's my right). "human morals" ???  I'm sorry, that doesn't even make sense.  Correction is natural to dogs, how you or any can't know that  is quite baffling to me. If I'm working with a dog that is...aggressive towards it's owners, and the dog displays that aggression, the dog will be corrected.  The correction depends on the dog, but is never ment  (at least by me) to harm the dog.

Let me re-phrase:  So, in real life, have you never met a dog with that level of aggression?  Or have you met a dog with that level of aggression and successfully dealt with it?  If it is the latter, would you explain how you managed to get near the dog to punish it for aggression when no one else could? 

PUNISH...PUNISH...PUNISH. See I can make it look even worse. lol I just love how some poeple with a certian agenda use play of words. It's a wod normally used by those who believe a dog should never be...corrected. But hey, if the media and the politicians can do it...why not. Any way...I once worked with a GSD for aggression issue's. While I was working with him the clients 14 year old son came out into the back yard and a 140 lb Malamute mix (that shouldn't have been there) came afer him to do serious harm, I grabbed a tennis racket off the patio table and dove between them. I never once tried to hit the dog as it repeated charged and attacted, I simple keep the racket between me the boy and the dog. For what ever reason, at that moment  the GSD came up from behind and gave me four severe puncher wounds to the back of the leg. I grabbed his collar and lifted his two front feet off the ground. The Mal backed off and walked away. I calmly placed the dog on the ground in a side down position and with little force held him there by his neck until he relaxed. I...PUNISHED  him for biting me. [] He didn't try it again. I didn't PUNISH the other dog at all. That's the short version because I don't have time to write a book.

I think it's called misplaced aggression.

Wait...I think I got that wrong.

Redirected Aggression: This is a relatively common type of aggression but one that is often misunderstood by pet owners. If a dog is somehow provoked by a person or animal he is unable to attack, he may redirect this aggression onto someone else. For example, two family dogs may become excited, and bark and growl in response to another dog passing through the front yard; or two dogs confined behind a fence may turn and attack each other because they can't attack an intruder.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

. For what ever reason, at that moment  the GSD came up from behind and gave me four severe puncher wounds to the back of the leg.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

 Espence, clicking never results in my dogs sitting.  If it did I would have been doing it wrong.  You are right in that if you weren't getting any results I'd ask, right what did you do?  And try to figure out where you got it wrong.  However, when one dog corrects another, and it does not impact on future behaviour, you can't say to me "well you didn't do it right".  That makes no sense.  I have observed many times where the dog being "corrected" only stops at that moment.... he goes back and does it again later, or the next day.  But that too is straying off topic....

 
That is not off topic, we are talking about aggression and corrections, we have never said that you just have to do it once and the dog is "fixed", no, the first correction is the first step of many that have to be done, the good thing about a correction is indeed that stops at that moment but also teaches the dog that there is a reaction to his actions, the dog will do it again, maybe to test if he is going to happen again or it was just one time thing and he can continue doing the same behavior, if you correct every time then he will realize "ok now for sure i cant keep doing this", if you dont do it every single time then the dog knows he can get away with it sometimes and sometimes not
 
You might even do it every single time but like not wanting to do it at all, that makes it wrong too, the dog knows  that you dont really want to do a correction so he will push it all the way till the corrections stop since he knows you are really close to do so

ORIGINAL: JM

I think it's called misplaced aggression.

Wait...I think I got that wrong.

Redirected Aggression: This is a relatively common type of aggression but one that is often misunderstood by pet owners. If a dog is somehow provoked by a person or animal he is unable to attack, he may redirect this aggression onto someone else. For example, two family dogs may become excited, and bark and growl in response to another dog passing through the front yard; or two dogs confined behind a fence may turn and attack each other because they can't attack an intruder.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

. For what ever reason, at that moment  the GSD came up from behind and gave me four severe puncher wounds to the back of the leg.

I know exactly what your talking about, how this was more pack mentallity aggression. Like I said it's the short version.

Speaking of short...I'm...outta here.
FriiiiidAY!!!

One more thing before I go. Sorry if I asked you this already, espencer why is it you don't work with dogs professionally?

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

One more thing before I go. Sorry if I asked you this already, espencer why is it you don't work with dogs professionally?

 
It has crossed my mind in the past, maybe one day [], what do you think?

In terms of "dealing with aggression without punishment", I like the ideas Angelique and mudpuppy presented, which have to do with setting up a good environment in the first place, to create less likelihood of cultivateing aggression responses. Perhaps there's lots of agreement about this, and the disagreements are only in terms of how to respond when the dog isn't in compliance with house rules (aka rewards v punishments).

This thread is too full of quotes, and frankly I didn't read most of it. So, I'm using Angelique and Mudpuppy's words from page 1 of this thread below, cut and pasted and mixed with mine and crediting them here. I'm finding their offerings to be, overall, in harmony.

I offer, for your analysis:

Instability - Due to confusion or insecurity in the dog because the dog is either not provided with calm, fair, trustworthy leadership, is provided with no leadership, inconsistant leadership, or is getting mixed "pack position" signals from various members of the family the dog is living with, so the dog has no clue as to "who is who" and where do I fit in. Also includes, Frustration (due to a lack of exercise, mental stimulation, and challenge in the dog's daily life which is appropriate for that dog's specific needs), Lack of social skills and Spoiling the dog rotten

examples
resource guarding: trying to take something away from the dog or trying to move the dog off of a piece of furntiture. aka instability: dog doesn't respect all stuff as belonging to the human pack leader

reactivity or fear aggression: grabbing at dog's collar when dog is highly aroused by something -- dog is highly aroused and misinterprets "the grab" as an attack. aka instability: dog doesn't respect authority of human pack members

dominance aggressive: Biting kids faces. This is often caused by rude, inappropriate behavior by the kids. And often the dog doesn't even mean to be aggressive, he's just "disciplining" the kid with a tooth-whack that wouldn't injure a puppy. This IS caused by "lack of leadership" since the humans should be the ones disciplining the kids and keeping the dog safe. aka instability: dog doesn't respect authority of human pack

Lack of social skills can certainly lead to aggression-- by fear. The undersocialized dog is usually terrified of other dogs or strange humans, and may decide "to get them before they get me".

Barrier aggression, where the dog runs up and down going nuts because there's a fence in his way. not sure how to conceptualize this one

Abusing a dog can cause aggression and mistrust.
There seems to be agreement here.

And then there's *positive* aggression?: territorial aggression-- dog goes after intruder, which I consider to be perfectly appropriate behavior we humans deliberately bred into our dogs. In thinking of aggression, I often forget that we desire some of it []

Geez Awesome anybody besides me ever tell you you are a pain in the A_ _!
Why are you so confrontational and sarcastic, even if you've made a good point in all of your gazillion posts I wouldn't know it nor would anyone one else. Are you having a bad life?

ORIGINAL: debv53

Geez Awesome anybody besides me ever tell you you are a pain in the A_ _!
Why are you so confrontational and sarcastic, even if you've made a good point in all of your gazillion posts I wouldn't know it nor would anyone one else. Are you having a bad life?

Some things make you laugh, and some things make you laugh out loud. Your post is one of those things.Ok, so a few things here. If I posted what you just posted, which is a strait out insult  (and only your opinion...and a few others lol) I'd be in trouble.  Also...my "gazillion posts"??? Have you looked at...your count? LOL Sorry if you don't get (like) my points. And...I'm having...the best life ever.[]

ps, my dogs name is not awesome.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ps, my dogs name is not awesome.

What is your dog's name? []

It was meant to be funny. lol. Glad to see that you do have a sense of humor.
Can you lighten up just a bit and tell me about your doggie at least cause he/she sure is pretty.

Um...if what your doing is working, why are you having "actual bloody dog fights"? And I never said every correction has to be physical. If a sound correction works...why not use that?

I have had a couple of bloody dog fights, because I brought in an adult, bitch aggressive dog to live with Emma. It did not work out. I now crate and rotate. Emma was NEVER the aggressor, and only turned around to fight back when the other dog pushed her into a corner.  She isn't dog aggressive, at all. She's fantastic with other dogs, and routinely plays with dogs ranging in size from 4 pounds to 90 pounds, both male and female. She plays with my best friend's year old baby. She eats with dogs she doesn't live with, without a problem (she came to me VERY food aggressive). She allows (and enjoys) petting and attention from strangers. She even allows most veterinary procedures, without being muzzled. It's working. If it weren't, she'd be dead. She was so nasty, I couldn't remove her from her crate without being bitten, at one point.