Dealing With Aggression Without Punishment

If a sound correction works...why not use that?

I would consider sound an interruptor rather than a "correction".  So, after the interruptive sound, what do you do if the dog persists in the behavior you don't want?

The problem is, I (again) don't deal in what if's (hypotheticals). I deal with real life.

Well, if that's the case, why not present us a case history of what you perceive as a truly aggressive dog, and what steps you took to correct the situation?  It would be a much more productive discussion, I suspect, than simply doing all this parrying.

Then the answer is...no...you didn't modify the dogs behavior, you simply got the dog to like you. The goal of modifying the behavior...means you...make it go away. I know a lot of rescuers that can get some aggressive dogs to like them, but no one else. The does not make a rehabilitated dog. So for someone who's "very familiar with aggression and have studied it in a lot of depth." You seem to be missing something.

This is a good example of a case history of yours that I would like to hear about.  Have you taken a dog that is extremely aggressive and gotten it to like you and others?  How do you define "like"?  Is it "tolerate", or something more?  (That is a legitimate question, not baiting you - I'm interested in whether you can assess if the dog in question really likes people or is just tolerant, disinterested, engaged, avoidant, or whatever - and how you got to that point.)

Some other people dont feel confortable doing that and decide to take another "less natural" (since dogs don t use clickers to eachother) route, thats fine, they get themselves out of trouble that way but not because humans take the other "more natural approach" that means is wrong, if it is then all dogs are wrong when they correct eachother

espencer, you make a good point.  Clickers are "unnatural" forms of communication for dogs.  But, I find it to be a credit to their abilities as a species that they can learn to understand us this way, and as quickly as they do.  Have you ever tried it?  I bet you would appreciate that aspect of it, too.

For those of us who have been in bite suits, we'll tell you that five layers of clothing won't protect you from a dominant aggressive dog.

I may be all wet here, awsomedog, but in my experience, police K9 units and competent Schutzhund trainers usually suit up to work with stable dogs, not dominant aggressive ones who are unstable.  A stable dog will "out".  I can understand how a dog with a solid bite would hurt through five layers, perhaps. A drivey dog, yes,but why would anyone be using a truly aggressive dog for protection or Sch? 

Hey, I browsed thru a lot of the responses here.  And, I had a comment on the topic, dealing with aggression without punishment. 

I've done that!  I never punished Willow and many, MANY times the little witch deserved it.  And, to be honest the reasons I never punished her AT FIRST were that I was completely afraid of being bitten.  So, I used kid gloves so to speak. 

I did my research(up many long nights reading and reading) about alpha dogs, and dog psychology and training and the difference between the two.  I had never experienced any of these things as all dogs in my past have been very "easy" and real doggie dogs that could be pains in the butts sometimes but definately no aggression issues, no safety issues with other humans or dogs.

So, after researching and frankly reading some stuff that really scared me I started the nothing in life is free program.  I was fortunate in that she took to it right away in that all the commands to do it with like sit, etc. she picked up very quickly. 

As time passed if she acted out to me I continued to not punish, I didn't even raise my voice--and continue to not raise it to this day.  BUT, now I was doing it because I had learned leaders don't do such things.  If she was really nasty and I HAD to confront her about it--like one night she came at me to bite--I VERY quickly forgave her and didn't hold a grudge.  I had also read leaders forgive very fast, no grudge held. 

During this time, I wanted "professional" help.  I wanted someone positive who could help me because I had thought I didn't know enough.  Well, this "positive" person really brought me right down and made me question her all over again---just as in my mind, we were making great progress--ie, no snarling, no growling at me in awhile, etc.  She told me many things that upset me and made me question myself at the time and now in retrospect make me angry.  She also  told me Willow was TOLERATING me.  I'd pet her and she'd say, "she really doesn't like that, but she's tolerating it." 

So, OK, I was "checked".  This aggressive dog who I thought I was making progress with is "tolerating" me.  Now, I was hyper vigilant trying to avoid a bite.  I kept at it with NILIF, I kept reading.  I dumped the trainer. 

Needless to say, four years later this dog that was tolerating me never leaves my side if she can help it.  I can do anything to her and I do mean anything with no trouble. 

I think a lot of this has to do with the way I went about working with her.  I gained her trust by not punishing her early on.  She knows when she comes to me she isn't going to get yelled at, yanked or any such thing.  There is no need.  If she makes a mistake she knows I will not flip out.  I'm not unpredictable to her. 

That's made all the difference.  And, all this was pre-CM. 
 
Edited to say---I did find--no offense to anyone--the trainer to want to dismiss us as soon as Willow growled at her.  She said something really stupid like "if she was mine I'd alpha roll her and if she didn't submit I'd put her down."  WTH??  There was nothing else but that or being put to sleep.  Then her next class showed up and they were all a bunch of labs and collies and goldens and she was all authority and acting like she knew what she was doing.  I guess with the easy dogs she did.  But, I wasn't impressed. 

This is a very good approach.  And the way I have to handle mine. There is little doubt that if anyone were to use a macho/punishment attitude, he would destroy them.

That's what kills me about those who say they can handle "any" dog by using the dominate method.

Some dogs will not take the crap.

If that trainer would have alpha rolled Willow, Willow would have destroyed her.

ORIGINAL: willowchow

I gained her trust by not punishing her early on.  She knows when she comes to me she isn't going to get yelled at, yanked or any such thing.  There is no need.  If she makes a mistake she knows I will not flip out.  I'm not unpredictable to her. 

Lori - what an excellent post and I found myself nodding the whole time I read it.  I felt the exact same way as you in the beginning (afraid), but then determined to take a leadership role but in a way that was non-threatening. Fortunately, I had a wonderful behaviorist to work with, but she basically confirmed what I knew and was already doing.  I can vouch firsthand for the night and day difference it made in Sassy.

Edited to say---I did find--no offense to anyone--the trainer to want to dismiss us as soon as Willow growled at her. She said something really stupid like "if she was mine I'd alpha roll her and if she didn't submit I'd put her down." WTH?? There was nothing else but that or being put to sleep. Then her next class showed up and they were all a bunch of labs and collies and goldens and she was all authority and acting like she knew what she was doing. I guess with the easy dogs she did. But, I wasn't impressed.

I must say that I was impressed right from the start of our interaction on this board at the way you questioned, kept an open mind, and kept the welfare of your dog first in your mind.  Sometimes, just an owner's commitment to keeping their dog safe can overcome bad advice, such as you got from this "trainer" (wow, I finally got to use the "'s LOL).  I've said it before, but I'll say it again, you have been an awesome owner for this dog.

ORIGINAL: JM 

That's what kills me about those who say they can handle "any" dog by using the dominate method.

Interesting, a personal definition of the "dominate" method would be helpful in understanding where you are coming from with this word.

ORIGINAL: JM

If that trainer would have alpha rolled...

Another interesting term. In your own words, what is an "alpha roll"? []

Credibility over an emotional conjuring of terms means a lot in these discussions. When someone can confidently describe their own dogs as safe, stable members of society who are welcomed just about anywhere, I want to know how they did it.

I am more than happy to open up two new threads to once again discuss "alpha roll" interpretations and proper use in the hands of a professional, or the many definitions and applications of "dominance" terminologies as they apply to canines - including the misrepresentation and emotional application of these terms out of context.

After all of our discussions, I sometimes find it a bit odd when we come back to the same old misunderstandings on terms and their applications. []

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

You are stating this as fact.  Please could you back it up as such?  Or is it just your opinion?

Fact; Dogs know more about dogs than humans do.

No it doesn't.  Dogs do correct other dogs.  I fail to see what that has to do with this discussion?  Why do you think that it is necessary for humans to correct dogs just because dogs do?  While dogs may correct other dogs, it does not always result in the dog avoiding repeating that action in the future.  This is the purpose of punishment and the point of the discussion - see OP.

My point...Because dogs understand correction

Please don't patronise me.  If you are not going to answer a question and do so civilly, don't bother to reply.  It is not a silly question.  It is a most pertinent question.  If it is not for retribution (which would be applying human morals to dogs as stated earlier) then why do it if it is not necessary?

Not patronising. I though and think it is silly (that's my right). "human morals" ???  I'm sorry, that doesn't even make sense.  Correction is natural to dogs, how you or any can't know that  is quite baffling to me. If I'm working with a dog that is...aggressive towards it's owners, and the dog displays that aggression, the dog will be corrected.  The correction depends on the dog, but is never ment  (at least by me) to harm the dog.

Let me re-phrase:  So, in real life, have you never met a dog with that level of aggression?  Or have you met a dog with that level of aggression and successfully dealt with it?  If it is the latter, would you explain how you managed to get near the dog to punish it for aggression when no one else could? 

PUNISH...PUNISH...PUNISH. See I can make it look even worse. lol I just love how some poeple with a certian agenda use play of words. It's a wod normally used by those who believe a dog should never be...corrected. But hey, if the media and the politicians can do it...why not. Any way...I once worked with a GSD for aggression issue's. While I was working with him the clients 14 year old son came out into the back yard and a 140 lb Malamute mix (that shouldn't have been there) came afer him to do serious harm, I grabbed a tennis racket off the patio table and dove between them. I never once tried to hit the dog as it repeated charged and attacted, I simple keep the racket between me the boy and the dog. For what ever reason, at that moment  the GSD came up from behind and gave me four severe puncher wounds to the back of the leg. I grabbed his collar and lifted his two front feet off the ground. The Mal backed off and walked away. I calmly placed the dog on the ground in a side down position and with little force held him there by his neck until he relaxed. I...PUNISHED  him for biting me. [] He didn't try it again. I didn't PUNISH the other dog at all. That's the short version because I don't have time to write a book.

 
Just to clarify:  The first part, which I asked you to either back up as a fact or state as an opinion was the following:
 

  ..."a scientifically minded person"...meaning a *human* who thinks they know more about dogs than dogs

 
I doubt you got this definition out of a dictionary.  I asked you to back it up because I found it mildly insulting; because I believe myself to be scientifically minded where animal behaviour is concerned.  In any case, that's by the by now.
 
Secondly; your logic appears to be "dogs correct dogs, ergo dogs understand corrections"  I see this as incorrect.  A truer statement would be "dogs correct dogs, therefore a dog understands a correction from another dog."  Whether he understands the correction from the human is questionable and depends much on circumstance and the human trying to do the correction - I think you will agree that it is not difficult to get it wrong - a great many owners and trainers do so on a daily basis and only succeed in screwing up the dog further.  Whether the human should attempt to emulate the kind of corrcetions a dog does is highly questionable.
 
To respond to anything anyone says with a dismissive "please let's not be silly" IS patronising - you may not think so, but others do (me included). 
 
Your words were - "bad behaviour should be corrected".  If the bad behaviour (in this instance we are talking about aggression) can be dealt with without corrections, then WHY should it be corrected?  What is the purpose?  You still have not answered this question which to me is the core of the discussion.
 
Finally, the use of the word PUNISHMENT (at least when I use it) is not to make it sound worse than it is.  It is a scientific term.  I could just as easily say that you were using the word "correction" to make it sound better than it is.  The thread is about punishment (see the title!).  Corrections can be an entirely different thing (they are to my mind), so I would prefer to stick with the P-word to avoid confusion, if it's all the same to you.
 
Lastly, with regard to your experience  - as you say he did not try it again, I would agree that you punished him.  I've seen owners respond to their dogs aggression by yanking on the lead, lifting their front legs off the floor, smacking them.... and in the long term, they have no effect on the dog's aggression whatsoever.  I see what they are doing as ineffective and sometimes cruel.... And because it has no long term impact on the animal's behaviour, I do not see it as punishment.  They are just reacting badly to unwanted behaviour. 

PS. There were other great posts here that I wanted to respond to.... but that essay just about knackered me out!  I doubt very much I will get the answers I was hoping for so I'll just thank everyone else sincerely for the interesting input and bow out.  It's time for me to try to get some sleep.

 Okay, nevermind. (post edited by self) []

Another interesting term. In your own words, what is an "alpha roll"?

Credibility over an emotional conjuring of terms means a lot in these discussions. When someone can confidently describe their own dogs as safe, stable members of society who are welcomed just about anywhere, I want to know how they did it.

I am more than happy to open up two new threads to once again discuss "alpha roll" interpretations and proper use in the hands of a professional, or the many definitions and applications of "dominance" terminologies as they apply to canines - including the misrepresentation and emotional application of these terms out of context.

Well, I'm not JM but I will give you the way it was for me.  The trainer felt that the only way to get Willow to be submissive would be to force her onto her side and hold her there.  Now, I've seen this done.  And, I've seen CM do it too.  Personally, I didn't see it as much of a big deal for those dogs.  However, Willow's personality is more like that Jindo CM worked with on his show.  And, even he used a muzzle on that dog.  So, basically, I thought that technique for my dog would be a mistake.  The timing was important too.  She wanted to do this to a really new dog, who had all sorts of life changes happening.  If she wanted to try that now, she might have a different outcome than then.

I also know the chow as a breed doesn't take well to man handling at all.  It makes matters worse.  Now, some dogs, it wouldn't make them worse, they'd submit and that would be lunch. 

So, I think the professional---as some call themselves but I beg to differ---needs to take the individual dog into consideration.  They need to consider whether this technique would be appropriate for this dogs breed, personality, age, health, experience in life, etc. 

Much like, for example, with other methods like clickers, some dogs respond straight away, my dog looks up at the sky.  You need to consider the individual. 

It's not that any method is more right or more wrong.  It's what's right for what you're working with. 

Lori[]

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

  ..."a scientifically minded person"...meaning a *human* who thinks they know more about dogs than dogs

I doubt you got this definition out of a dictionary.  I asked you to back it up because I found it mildly insulting; because I believe myself to be scientifically minded where animal behaviour is concerned.  In any case, that's by the by now.

I don't need a dictionary to know some humans think they know more about dogs...than dogs do.

Secondly; your logic appears to be "dogs correct dogs, ergo dogs understand corrections"  I see this as incorrect.  A truer statement would be "dogs correct dogs, therefore a dog understands a correction from another dog."  Whether he understands the correction from the human is questionable and depends much on circumstance and the human trying to do the correction - I think you will agree that it is not difficult to get it wrong - a great many owners and trainers do so on a daily basis and only succeed in screwing up the dog further.  Whether the human should attempt to emulate the kind of corrcetions a dog does is highly questionable.

I don't give dogs unfair corrections, and that...is where I'm coming from. I can't control what others do.

To respond to anything anyone says with a dismissive "please let's not be silly" IS patronising - you may not think so, but others do (me included).

Ok...that's how you feel, am I suposed to feel about and see things the way...you do?

Your words were - "bad behaviour should be corrected".  If the bad behaviour (in this instance we are talking about aggression) can be dealt with without corrections, then WHY should it be corrected?  What is the purpose?  You still have not answered this question which to me is the core of the discussion.

I have never seen a truly aggressive dog...rehabilitated without some type of correction. So tell me...how is that done. I'll start you off. You arrive at the home of a client and they have a human aggressive Cane Corso. You do what.

Finally, the use of the word PUNISHMENT (at least when I use it) is not to make it sound worse than it is.  It is a scientific term.  I could just as easily say that you were using the word "correction" to make it sound better than it is.  The thread is about punishment (see the title!).  Corrections can be an entirely different thing (they are to my mind), so I would prefer to stick with the P-word to avoid confusion, if it's all the same to you.

It's not all the same to me...thank you. Then the OP will need to clarify...punishment. And if PUNISHING a dog is all you wish to discuss then that takes me out of the discussion. I'm not in to PUNISHING! dogs. And if..." punishment (see the title!).< and >  Corrections can be an entirely different thing (they are to my mind)" Which do you see as which? And if you see someone correcting their dog is it you who desides if what their doing is correcting or PUNISHING the dog?

Lastly, with regard to your experience  - as you say he did not try it again, I would agree that you punished him.  I've seen owners respond to their dogs aggression by yanking on the lead, lifting their front legs off the floor, smacking them.... and in the long term, they have no effect on the dog's aggression whatsoever.  I see what they are doing as ineffective and sometimes cruel.... And because it has no long term impact on the animal's behaviour, I do not see it as punishment.  They are just reacting badly to unwanted behaviour.

WHAT??? I lay the dog on it's side and you see that as punishing...BUT! And I'll quote..."I've seen owners respond to their dogs aggression by yanking on the lead, lifting their front legs off the floor, smacking them.... and in the long term, they have no effect on the dog's aggression whatsoever.  I see what they are doing as ineffective and sometimes cruel.... And because it has no long term impact on the animal's behaviour, I do not see it as punishment.  They are just reacting badly to unwanted behaviour." But you don't see yanking, smacking, or hanging...as punishment...because..."it has no long term impact on the animal's behaviour"??? I admit...you've stumped me and I don't even know how to respond to that.

I do know this though. I've worked with many dogs over the years, and I've watched many become loving family members. So I think I'll stick to what I'm doing and work with...mother nature...until someone can prove other wise.

But again...I'll leave the PUNISHMENT talk to you folks.

WHAT??? I lay the dog on it's side and you see that as punishing...BUT! And I'll quote..."I've seen owners respond to their dogs aggression by yanking on the lead, lifting their front legs off the floor, smacking them.... and in the long term, they have no effect on the dog's aggression whatsoever.  I see what they are doing as ineffective and sometimes cruel.... And because it has no long term impact on the animal's behaviour, I do not see it as punishment.  They are just reacting badly to unwanted behaviour." But you don't see yanking, smacking, or hanging...as punishment...because..."it has no long term impact on the animal's behaviour"??? I admit...you've stumped me and I don't even know how to respond to that.

I do know this though. I've worked with many dogs over the years, and I've watched many become loving family members. So I think I'll stick to what I'm doing and work with...mother nature...until someone can prove other wise.

But again...I'll leave the PUNISHMENT talk to you folks.

Oh, no don't go away yet.  Is it not true that if your thinking like a dog that another dog "alpha rolling" them---just to clarify---making another dog lay on it's side to show submission--would only be done in a dire situation, life or death?  The dog would be essentially trying to tell the other dog, "I could kill you."  I've been hearing how extreme this act would be in the dogs eyes if done by another dog since I got my dog. 

And, on the other hand, stuff like smacking, hanging, yanking is not understood by them.  It only seems like unpredictable behavior to them.  Thus sort of defeating the whole purpose of acheiveing any type of understandable correction or punishment for a behavior.  And, also confusing the dog about your leadership status--because to them you couldn't possibly really be the leader with such erratic behavior--in their eyes.

[]

awsomedog, no one has screamed at you on this thread - why the caps and underscores?  I can see the veins popping in your neck.  Instead, if you want to disagree with us, why not give us a case history, step by step, of how you rehabilitated a seriously aggressive dog, and the "punishment" (whatever you wish that to mean) you used.  I'm sure that would go farther to bolster your point than just being sarcastic about anyone else's ability to do it with other methods.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

awsomedog, no one has screamed at you on this thread - why the caps and underscores?  I can see the veins popping in your neck.  Instead, if you want to disagree with us, why not give us a case history, step by step, of how you rehabilitated a seriously aggressive dog, and the "punishment" (whatever you wish that to mean) you used.  I'm sure that would go farther to bolster your point than just being sarcastic about anyone else's ability to do it with other methods.

As usual you don't paint a accurate picture of what's actually happening, which I find very interesting for someone who's studied *human* psychology.

I'll point out a few things, starting with this nugget of gold. Which! was itself  "confrontational and sarcastic".

Geez Awesome anybody besides me ever tell you you are a pain in the A_ _!
Why are you so confrontational and sarcastic, even if you've made a good point in all of your gazillion posts I wouldn't know it nor would anyone one else. Are you having a bad life?

Which...lol was then followed by this...

It was meant to be funny. lol. Glad to see that you do have a sense of humor.
Can you lighten up just a bit and tell me about your doggie at least cause he/she sure is pretty.

I'm sorry...how is that funny? The fact that I used the handle awsomedog (and one genius without knowing why, thought they'd point out I mispelled awesome) deb thought calling me awesome, and a pain in the ***, and then asking if I'm having a bad life was funny...how??? Oh!...and then with her 2361 post, calls my 662 post...a gazillion. Now...that's!...funny.

Now...lets see...underlining and bolds. Let's have a look.

"bad behaviour should be corrected"

WHY should it be corrected?

I'm sorry...you were saying.

And I'm yelling at no one. also until you know me don't assume you know what I'm feeling. Your agenda of *I'm so angry and a few of you are so calm* is...bs at best. I've recieved my share of attacks from the same people here (including you) many times. And I have yet to whine about it. My guess is...the smoke is coming from some of your ears...not mine.[]

ORIGINAL: willowchow



Oh, no don't go away yet.  Is it not true that if your thinking like a dog that another dog "alpha rolling" them---just to clarify---making another dog lay on it's side to show submission--would only be done in a dire situation, life or death?The dog would be essentially trying to tell the other dog, "I could kill you."  I've been hearing how extreme this act would be in the dogs eyes if done by another dog since I got my dog.

Well... no can say for sure how "extreme this act would be in the dogs eyes" since we can't get into their minds.  I can tell you for a fact...that when a dog goes into attack mode and I place them on their side until they relax...it works. I've also witnessed this in dogs that were not...try to *kill* the other dog, but simply putting them in their place.

And, on the other hand, stuff like smacking, hanging, yanking is not understood by them.  It only seems like unpredictable behavior to them.  Thus sort of defeating the whole purpose of acheiveing any type of understandable correction or punishment for a behavior.  And, also confusing the dog about your leadership status--because to them you couldn't possibly really be the leader with such erratic behavior--in their eyes.

[]

I don't do those things so....
Chuffy said she didn't see them as punishment. So not sure why your directing that towards me, because I agree with you.