Ogre

He started acting out in general because of Culley. Now, I have seen this with Ogre before- this is a very definite pattern that I know all too well with him. I do something that offends him or hurts his feelings, and he acts out for DAYS. Something I do upsets him, and he forgets house training, is generally grumbly, he sulks, he gets horribly irritable, he destroys this in the house- he develops alot of stress related, SA-like behaviors- this can be from something as simple as giving him less than another dog gets of a certain treat- he honestly keeps tabs on things like that. ANYTHING he considers to be unfair results in these behaviors.

Once he starts with these behaviors, one of two things happen. If I spend the next few days sucking up to him, he'll return to his normal happy self. IF I get frustrated with how silly he's being, and yell at him, snap at him, or in any way show that I am upset with him, he gets worse. Much worse. Until I stop being snotty with him (usually I'm just stressed about everything he's spent a few days destroying) he continues on his downward path. 99% of the time, once I realize that I'm perpetuating the behavior and stop, it only takes a couple of days for him to get better.

Don't mean to offend, but you appear like a really unstable pack leader – especially in a dogs view.  You believe you offend your dog? And as a result he sulks?  You hurt his feeling? And as a result he gets irritable with you?  You believe he rebels and pees on your floor.  He is untrained and he has NO leadership.

Come on, you seem more experienced than that.  You really need to become benevolent, not mean and unstable.  Stop yelling and start training.  Stop worrying about hurting his feelings and give him someone he can rely on.  The dog needs rules.  Work really hard and teach Ogre a solid sit and stay, that would stop the chicken killing!  It won't happen over night but a lot of hard work and it CAN be done.  Teach him to "come” solid and reliable or stay, again reliable.  Use NILIF every time for everything.  This is for sure a dominates issue,  when a pack leader (you) is unstable some dogs, like Akita respond negatively.  They need strong, persistent leadership – someone they can count on.    

You believe because the dog saw you putting up an electric fence and he got shocked he knows you did it.  NO!  That is the point of electric fences is that they don't associate you with the punishment.  The PROBLEM is you did no training, you put a electric fence, slapped a collar or just let him go and bounce off the fence?  Sent him off to fail and be shocked, he can't trust you.  This dog has to fend for himself because he has no leadership.  When you install something like an electric fence training should have incurred for a minimum of three weeks.  Walking the dog to the fence, running back into the yard when he approached it, telling him no, no – teaching him that something bad is going to happen. 

I don't know, I am sorry and I am no expert but you are really lost in all this  To many dogs, to little leadership.  Take a couple of months, and really train you dog, teach him the right things to do and stop punishing the wrong and in the mean time keep Culley safe.

Without proper pack structure dogs become unruly, destructive, anxious, and sometimes aggressive. With strong benevolent leadership and a solid obedience foundation, your dog will learn to look to you for leadership, relax and trust in you.

ETA:  I know from your previous post that you don't like it when the blame is put back on you so for that I appoligize.  But I truely beleive you can do much more to in the way of leadership to help this dog.   Orge is in turmoil and therefore out of control.  I know you live in the woods, but...

1.  Can you walk Ogre on a leash, with contol?
2.  Can you get Ogre to sit?
3.  Can you get Ogre to stay?
4.  Does he come?
5.  Does he come reliably?
6.  Does he down?
7.  Is there anything you can trust Ogre to do because you ask it of him?
8.  Have you trained and worked with Ogre using a chicken? or just dumped him in the yard with a bunch of Chicken running around and expected that he would have self control?  I get the vibe from your emails that you expected him to act like this with the livestock.  If you did, why didn't you try and counter condition him and usnign confinement BEFORE he was allowed to go to pieces? 

You can't just pick up most dogs and throw them into a new home, new life, new surrounds, live stock, new pets or kittens and expect them to know, knowing that he is an unstable dog - that's not the way it works.

you have three intact males and no good reason to have any of them intact

Wrong. Pepito should not be intact right now. The other two are large breed puppies. MANY people with large breed dogs opt to not neuter immature dogs for health reasons. I'm one of them.

espencer, you and I simply do not see dog behavior the same way. Period. We're not going to agree here, at all. I HAVE read Cesar Millan's book, which is where you're pulling alot of this from, and I disagree with much of it. It is my perogative to disagree as much as it is yours. I won't say that either of us is wrong- but we're speaking two different languages and that's all there is to it.


To everyone else, I do NOT need to be convinced that Culley may need to be rehomed. I get it. I understand. I EVEN agree. But, but, BUT, I will *not* consider it until I have exhausted all other options. You're free to disagree with that approach, but that's the one I'm taking- right now I feel that it would be *majorly* jumping the gun.

I understand dog aggression. I understand the way an Akita's mind works. I understand where alot of you are coming from (the dominance/submission standpoint) and it's NOT where I'm coming from. You're free to disagree with that- but there it is. I am not new to dogs, I am not new to researching dogs, I am not new to working with difficult dogs- there is no need to treat me like some clueless newbie owner. Those of you who think my understanding of Ogre is silly simply have a much, much different way of viewing dog behavior- but I am NOT alone in my views, just as you are not alone in yours.

luvmyswissy, where on EARTH did you get the idea that I have done no training with Ogre? What the heck? I have put HOURS a day into this dog since day one. He is NOT untrained- did you even read my posts? Ogre was a VERY well trained, excellently behaved dog until we moved. Then it all flew out the window. It is a well known fact that Akitas do NOT generalize well, and this is really not all that surprising.

Ogre had perfect manners pre-move. We had worked out his EXTREME fear aggression through the use of clicker training and other confidance building techniques. We taugh leash manners. We taugh him manners for interacting with people and other dogs. He had EXCELLANT basic obedience- he *loved* clicker training and would do anything for clicks. He heeled perfectly, he was wonderful in public and with strangers and with other dogs. He had various jobs around the house that he did for me. His house training was impeccable. AND, I had chickens BEFORE I moved out here- and he was taught an excellant "leave it" and had a great recall. If you had taken the time to read some of my other posts, you would SEE that he was a very well trained dog prior to all of this- I did not just "throw him out with chickens and expect him to know how to act"- I had taken the time to work with him and train him to leave chickens alone in a controlled environment. I am not an idiot who doesn't train their dogs and expects them to behave a certain way anyway.

1.  Can you walk Ogre on a leash, with contol?

Yup.

2.  Can you get Ogre to sit?

Yup.

3.  Can you get Ogre to stay?

Yup.

4.  Does he come?

Yup.

5.  Does he come reliably?

Yup. Has excellant recall, especially for an Akita.

6.  Does he down?

Yup.

7.  Is there anything you can trust Ogre to do because you ask it of him?

Yep. He has various little jobs he does for me to keep him occupied.

8.  Have you trained and worked with Ogre using a chicken? or just dumped him in the yard with a bunch of Chicken running around and expected that he would have self control?  I get the vibe from your emails that you expected him to act like this with the livestock.  If you did, why didn't you try and counter condition him and usnign confinement BEFORE he was allowed to go to pieces? 

See above. Thanks for assuming alot of things that are entirely untrue, though. Ogre has had very extensive training in the past, and we are working on re-training now.
 

Ratsicles, it's a hard situation but you do NOT seem to fully comprehend this and are making excuses. Yes, it DOES HAPPEN that all of a sudden a dog that was previously ok with the other dogs in the house can attack them.

 
What do you mean I "don't fully comprehend this?" I comprehend very well what's going on here, thank you. I NEVER said dogs don't suddenyl turn on other dogs- I NEVER said that it doesn't happen. I am simply saying that knowing what I know of Ogre, which is quite a bit, this doesn't seem to be something that is likely to happen. I see his interractions with other dogs and there is nothing to imply that he will attack them. If you want to try the "well you don't know it might happen so so get him away from other dogs immediately" angle, then why not seperate ALL dogs from ALL other dogs immediately? You never know, they might attack eahc other! Until I see some signs of resentment from Ogre pertaining to the other dogs- and I am VERY good at reading him- I see no reason to assume that he's going to make that leap.

The fact that he had such good manners before may actually bolster the argument that Culley should be rehomed. I know it's been attributed to the move but it also occured around the time Culley was introduced, right? In fact earlier you said:
"This all started with us getting Culley. Ogre saw this as "slight against him #1." This was almost 2 weeks before we moved to this house, around the first of June. "

It really may just be as simple as that was the trigger. And the behaviour won't change (and could escalate to a sad and dangerous conclusion), until Culley is gone.

The fact that he had such good manners before may actually bolster the argument that Culley should be rehomed. I know it's been attributed to the move but it also occured around the time Culley was introduced, right? In fact earlier you said:
"This all started with us getting Culley. Ogre saw this as "slight against him #1." This was almost 2 weeks before we moved to this house, around the first of June. "

It really may just be as simple as that was the trigger. And the behaviour won't change (and could escalate to a sad and dangerous conclusion), until Culley is gone.

 
No, I agree- I personally do attribute much more of this to Culley's presence than to the move. I do not question in my mind at ALL Culley's role in this- which is why I stated that I do not need ot be convinced that Culley may need to be rehomed.
 
My point was simply that I would like to TRY to get Ogre back to the page he was on before all of this with Culley still in the picture. I may very well not be able to do that- and I understand and accept that fact. IF, after I have tried everything else, and Ogre just refuses to accept Culley, Culley will be rehomed. I don't know how to make that any more clear than I'm making it. If nothing else can be done, I will rehome him. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. As it is, there are MANY things that I feel may have some effect on the situation that I want to try. They may not work. If they don't, I'll rehome Culley. My point all along has been that as long as there is a CHANCE that I can make this work, I'm not ready to give up. Period.

Ok, forget what i said, do just 2 things:

1,-Ignore his tantrums, every time (even if they last weeks)
2.-Do not suck up on him, at all
 
Nothing else, easy right?

I think luvmyswissy meant, can he do all that training today? we know he was able before, and i quote your own words "everything went out the window once you move", if he is able to sit on comand, to come, to stay, to leave chickens alone today, this discussion would not exist
 
Is time for you to go to your room with your dog, close the door (that is an enviroment without distractions), and start all the commands training all over again

Since your dog has such a reliable come and stay then you should have no issues with chicken killing, huh?  It's not hard to change the pack dynamics, especially when you add a new dog.  But to loose his training in such a way due to a move, you better start all over again.  In one breath you say what a well behaved dog you have, mannered and obdient and in another you talk about all the problems.  Yes I have followed your post and that is why I believe he is unstable because of you.  You think the dog is smarted than you are and that he rationalizes? YOUR behavior?  You admit to believeing that he is manipulating you with his behavior, being sulky and mad at you. It's craziness to even think that! [:'(]

ETA: removed some wording.
 
You should really consider what YOUR doing wrong.  Most dog behaviors are what they are because of their humans, plain and simple!

PS:  My dog is a large dog not 50 not 80 - but 150 pounds! and nutured at 6 months old.  Recommended by a highly respected Vet of large breed dogs and farm animals.  Do yourself a favor and neuter your dogs before you have more problems that you can't control.

I think luvmyswissy meant, can he do all that training today? we know he was able to before and i quote your own words "everything went out the window once you move", if he is able to sit on comand, to come, to stay, to leave chickens alone today, this discussion would not exist

 
If that is what she meant, that isn't how she put it- I think the statement that Ogre is "untrained" and that I "didn't bother to train him and just expected him to act a certain way" imply that she doesn't think he was ever trained, at all, and that I am just clueless.

He WILL still do these things, but he has regressed. We've been re-training since the move- where once he would do whatever I said instantly, I now have to haev the clicker in my hand for him to listen. We basically started back at square one and re-taught him basic obedience. He is slowly improving and I think the obedience issue will be resolved soon- it's just a matter of getting all of that training back under his belt.

My point was simply that I would like to TRY to get Ogre back to the page he was on before all of this with Culley still in the picture. I may very well not be able to do that- and I understand and accept that fact. IF, after I have tried everything else, and Ogre just refuses to accept Culley, Culley will be rehomed. I don't know how to make that any more clear than I'm making it.

I get that - and I commend you for trying. I think you should put a time limit on it though - for the good of the dogs (Ogre seems to be regressing more with ever passing day, just as Culley is getting more used to being there) you (you're obviously and understandably stressed out about this), your husband (attachment).

My animals are my kids.  It would be like cutting off an arm to rehome somebody, but I'd do it if it were in the best interests of the animal.  I seriously think it could be in Culley's interest to be in a home where his life is not at risk.  He's a great dog, and he deserves a safe home. 

I know you are going to keep trying to find a workable solution, but if much time goes by and things are still crazy, please do consider finding Culley somewhere new. 

I'm sorry that all of this is happening, and I hope that whatever you do it works out for everyone.  [sm=floating.gif]

Ratsicles, it seems that no matter what is suggested you get defensive and indicate that you are unwilling to follow the suggestion.  This is a consistent pattern with your postings on this board.  In spite of the fact that you come here asking for advice, it seems to me, you don't really WANT advice.  What you want, again, it seems to me, is to be told what a great owner you are.
 
Okay, I am nothing if not kind, gentle and accommodating.  You are the best dog owner in the world.  Rather than trying something different, maybe your best course of action would be to continue to do what you are doing, then check back with us in 6 months or so and tell us how many animals you have that are still alive.

I am writing this on Behalf of Ogre, and His Owner.

 I am an Interspecies Communicator, Ratsicles contacted me, hoping i could find a solution to Ogre's Behavioral problems. This was not the first time i have intuitively connected with Ogre.

 When Ratsicles Brought Ogre home, I connected with him, to get a feel for what his prior home life was like. Ogre was moderately neglected. He was tied up outside on a short tie out, he was fed, poorly, but fed. If he was spoken to, it was harsh, and degrading. Ogre, knew that life was not supposed to be purposeless, Ogre managed to get loose, and run away from the neglectful life he had. There is always something better, it you just keep searching. He was picked up by a shelter. HE hoped his new life would be full of purpose. When Ratsicles brought him home, he was very timid of everything. He found solace in being with his loving person, and loved his crate, his own "cave". Ogre enjoyed romping with his new family and brothers. After moving to the new house, with a new dog brother, Ogre, made a few really bad choices. He felt that Culley, was going to take over his "game". his life. his family. too many things were happening all at once, Ogre felt very confused and scared, He didn't know how else to tell his family how he felt about all the new things, and his worries. He thought that taking a few lives would get their attention. It did get his family's attention, not it the way Ogre had hoped. Ratsicles is only human, and responded any human would, by yelling, and harshness. Ogre was terrified. He thought his last home life was going to happen over again.Little things like the muzzle, and being tied out, he connects those things with the neglect of his last home.

Granted there are little things Ratsicles can do for the time being. To make everyone safe and happy. You can't please everyone at all times. I have talked to Ratsicles on what she should be doing in the best interests of Ogre, and Culley. and NONE of those suggestions involve REhoming, or any harsh methods of training. All ogre needs is to be reassured that his life will have plenty of purpose, he will NOT be forgotten, or neglected. He will not be yelled at, or be made to wear silly demeaning hats.

In regards to Ogre AND Culley, Sibling rivalry is going to happen! Ogre needs to know that Culley, will not take ALL the attention. Culley will have a different purpose, than Ogre's.

Animals CAN: take offense, rationalize, fear, and LOVE!
The SAME souls that reside in your Dog's bodies, are the SAME type of souls in any Human body. Can YOU: take Offense, rationalize, fear, and love??

I know you are going to keep trying to find a workable solution, but if much time goes by and things are still crazy, please do consider finding Culley somewhere new. 

 
I definitely will, no problem. That was my intent all along. []
 
 
I would like to point out that Ogre and Culley have been kept seperate for about a month now...they've had zero contact and so far it's been pretty workable. In fact, I can concievably move Culley several pastures away from Ogre- out of site and seperated by SEVERAL tall fences that Ogre CANNOT jump (the only one low enough to jump is the yard fence) if need be. I can concievably keep them about a mile away from each other if necessary...no problem. I DO have the means to keep them from EVER, ever, seeing each other or getting close enough that another fight could happen. 8 acres is ALOT of land, and I have the space and the means to keep them well away from each other. In fact, that sounds good- I may take Culley down to the farthest pasture when it's his turn to go outside. That way Ogre doesn't have to stay crated when he's indoors, since he won't be able to see Culley. I can also use that pasture for Ogre...since he can't jump or climb that fence and won't be able to see any of the livestock from there. I think that might work much better than letting them out in the yard, the immediate area around the house, where they are within potential view and reach of each other. It would keep Ogre from having to be tied when he's outside, as well.
 
Ogre has also not killed any chickens in about a month- because I have found a way to keep him away from them. As long as I am doing this, I honestly don't see how any lives are immediately in danger.
 

 
You should really consider what YOUR doing wrong.  Most dog behaviors are what they are because of their humans, plain and simple!

I agree, and I have aknowledged my role in this. I do not claim to be blameless, and I think I pointed out in one post that I felt like I had been approaching things wrong and that I have been perpetuating some of this behavior.
 

Since your dog has such a reliable come and stay then you should have no issues with chicken killing, huh?  It's not hard to change the pack dynamics, especially when you add a new dog.  But to loose his training in such a way due to a move, you better start all over again. 

 
I think I've said several times that we were starting from square one. SEVERAL times. His obedience IS improving on a daily basis. I made it clear that his training was reliable BEFORW, but isn't now. I don't know how many times or ways I can say that to make it clear.

Ratsicles, it seems that no matter what is suggested you get defensive and indicate that you are unwilling to follow the suggestion.  This is a consistent pattern with your postings on this board.  In spite of the fact that you come here asking for advice, it seems to me, you don't really WANT advice.  What you want, again, it seems to me, is to be told what a great owner you are.

Okay, I am nothing if not kind, gentle and accommodating.  You are the best dog owner in the world.  Rather than trying something different, maybe your best course of action would be to continue to do what you are doing, then check back with us in 6 months or so and tell us how many animals you have that are still alive.

 
I am by no means a perfect dog owner, and I don't expect to be told that I am. I am not here for people to blow smoke up my butt- I am, most definitely, taking many of the things that are said to heart. When I say that I will consider rehoming Culley, how is that NOT taking the advice I'm given? People siad I should have health tests on him. That's going to be done. How is that NOT following the advice I'm given? People say that I should go back to square one with him. I'm doing this. How is that NOT following the advice I'm given?
 
Just becauser I don't agree with EVERY suggestion doesn't mean that I agree with none of them. I appreciate all of the advice I get- both what I agree with and what I don't. I am here discussing his problems because I am trying to get ideas that I haven't had already- everyone has made it very clear that they think Culley should be rehomed. Until everyone posted that, I didn't really see that perspective- but I do now, and I agree that in the end it may turn out to be the best thing. How is that NOT following the advice I'm given?
 
 

ORIGINAL: probe1957
Ratsicles, it seems that no matter what is suggested you get defensive and indicate that you are unwilling to follow the suggestion.

I would get defensive, too, if "ganged up" on. When a person asks for advice, there is no inherent agreement that all advice will be followed. There should be no obligation to take advice that was freely given. 

I don't want to appear to be taking sides here. I'm not. I think all of you have some excellent points and I agree with many of them. But I get the impression you're going to keep badgering Ratsicle until she buckles under TODAY and promises to do just what you say.

I know I'm new here but it's clear to me that there's a bandwagon leaving the station and I refuse to jump on it. []

I believe Rat knows the seriousness of the situation and will do and is doing everything possible to keep everyone safe. There's no reason to think that Cully and Ogre are all of a sudden going to be left in the yard together to have at it. They're completely separated.

Ah... Barnangel, what an appropriate name!

ORIGINAL: barnangel

I am writing this on Behalf of Ogre, and His Owner.

I am an Interspecies Communicator, Ratsicles contacted me, hoping i could find a solution to Ogre's Behavioral problems. This was not the first time i have intuitively connected with Ogre.

When Ratsicles Brought Ogre home, I connected with him, to get a feel for what his prior home life was like. Ogre was moderately neglected. He was tied up outside on a short tie out, he was fed, poorly, but fed. If he was spoken to, it was harsh, and degrading. Ogre, knew that life was not supposed to be purposeless, Ogre managed to get loose, and run away from the neglectful life he had. There is always something better, it you just keep searching. He was picked up by a shelter. HE hoped his new life would be full of purpose. When Ratsicles brought him home, he was very timid of everything. He found solace in being with his loving person, and loved his crate, his own "cave". Ogre enjoyed romping with his new family and brothers. After moving to the new house, with a new dog brother, Ogre, made a few really bad choices. He felt that Culley, was going to take over his "game". his life. his family. too many things were happening all at once, Ogre felt very confused and scared, He didn't know how else to tell his family how he felt about all the new things, and his worries. He thought that taking a few lives would get their attention. It did get his family's attention, not it the way Ogre had hoped. Ratsicles is only human, and responded any human would, by yelling, and harshness. Ogre was terrified. He thought his last home life was going to happen over again.Little things like the muzzle, and being tied out, he connects those things with the neglect of his last home.

Granted there are little things Ratsicles can do for the time being. To make everyone safe and happy. You can't please everyone at all times. I have talked to Ratsicles on what she should be doing in the best interests of Ogre, and Culley. and NONE of those suggestions involve REhoming, or any harsh methods of training. All ogre needs is to be reassured that his life will have plenty of purpose, he will NOT be forgotten, or neglected. He will not be yelled at, or be made to wear silly demeaning hats.

In regards to Ogre AND Culley, Sibling rivalry is going to happen! Ogre needs to know that Culley, will not take ALL the attention. Culley will have a different purpose, than Ogre's.

Animals CAN: take offense, rationalize, fear, and LOVE!
The SAME souls that reside in your Dog's bodies, are the SAME type of souls in any Human body. Can YOU: take Offense, rationalize, fear, and love??

 
Wow.