Dog Community

Ogre

Posted : 8/1/2007 4:24:23 AM

I seriously, seriously debated posting this thread, given that most likely I'm going to be attacked for it. I PMed someone for help, but their inbox is full, so I've decided to do this instead. I'd like to prefrace this by saying a few things:

If you don't have something nice to say, please keep it to yourself.
I am posting this in an attempt to HELP my dog. If people can't post here and ask for help, what's the point of this forum in the first place?
I am not considering euthanizing, rehoming, or otherwise dumping Ogre.
The is absolutely no need to imply that I am.

He is NOT human aggressive. There is no need to imply that he is going to go on a rampage and eat babies. He isn't.

He IS neutered, and has had basic vet checks. I HAVEN'T had any extra tests done on him though. This seems purely behavioral, at least to me.

I am willing to do whatever it takes, 100%, to get him back to the awesome dog he was. There is no need to question my commitment, OR MY ABILITY to care for, and work with my dog.

Thank you. Now, to the actual point of the problem:

I just don't know what to do about Ogre- he is getting worse and worse. He went from a wonderful dog before we moved to a 110 pound monster in the last month and a half. He is like a 100% different dog. Every single bit of training we did with him went out the window...it was like he had never received any training before in his life.

I've read about how Akitas don't generalize well, and I assume this must be the case. I just don't know what to do about it....right now what we're doing isn't working.

Right now, he is having to spend his entire day (exept for when I'm exercising him) crated or tied out in the yard. I HATE doing this to him, and it's just increasing his frustration and making him worse. Our electric fence is not reliable. No matter what we do to it, it has a tendency to go off at the slightest thing...Ogre now knows this. If our electric fence worked properly, alot of our problems with him would be solved. So far I've spent 500 bucks on it and it's just not reliable and since Ogre knows it, he never, ever stops testing it...waiting for the one second it flickers and then immediately tries to jump the fence. Him getting out is no longer an issue because we keep him crated or tied- but those can't be long term solutions to the problem, obviously.

He absolutely hates Culley. I have no idea why, since he is super sweet and submissive to the other dogs. Regardless of why, I have to rotate them- one goes out, the other comes in, and vice versa. When Ogre is inside, and Culley is out, I can't even uncrate him then- because he is so set on getting to Culley that he'll go so far as to attempt to jump through windows....once he saw Culley playing in the yard and started SLAMMING his whole body against a window to get to him.

When he's tied outside, he screams constantly (a really weird, distinctive, ear splitting noise) and destroys anything within reach. I have to bring him water every 30 minutes when he's out there because I can't even leave him a water bowl outside. Same with a dog house...I simply had to tie him where he could utilize the shade from the overhang of the house when he's out there. Then, he decided that if he didn't have anything else to destroy, he'd destroy the house itself. He ripped off some of our siding, exposing the cables leading to our satellite dish, then bit those in two, pulled the box off of the wall, and ALMOST ripped the dish off of the roof. We're now going to replace a few hundred dollars worth of equipment. We can't afford to right now, so we're without TV. Fun.

I've gone back to square one with him. NILIF, and very very very basic obedience, working back up to the level he was at before all of this happened. He is a SMART dog- he suddenly just decided that he didn't have to listen to me anymore. It's like one day it just clicked in his brain: "Hey, I'm pretty big and can do what I want. Screw you guys." Unfortunately, I have nowhere TO work on this with him- there are distractions everywhere out here. Outside, he can see chickens and goats and rabbits and the neighbor's horses- inside, all he can think about is finding Culley. Why he decided to go on this rampage of animal aggression, I have no idea. He was the biggest baby in the WORLD before we moved- he was honestly the best behaved dog I've ever had.

I spent the afternoon yesterday on the phone with behaviorists/trainers. I called every single one in the phone book. NONE will come out here, since I live 30+ minutes away from town, 40+ minutes if you go the speed limit. Not a single one has experience working with dogs and livestock. MANY of them didn't use positive training techniques- which is a MUST with Ogre- one single thing he regards as "harsh" and he shuts down and is completely unresponsive for days- if he feels slighted he doesn't forget it for a good long while. Harsh training methods just plain do not work on him- we only ever had success with clicker training, and until recently, it worked wonderfully. I finally managed to find ONE trainer who was willing to come out- but she wanted $300 for an initial consultation (somehow living 30-40 minutes out of town justifies a $200 price increase[8|] ) AND she said that she had never worked with a dog like Ogre, AND she said that she "would probably reccomend a shock collar in his case and would I be comfortable with that," AND said that she didn't know if she'd be able to work with him but she'd do the initial consultation and "see." Really, I can't afford to flush $300 down the toilet- either she can help him or she can't, and it didn't sound like she thought she could....and either way, I have no intentions of putting a shock collar on my dog. She doesn't sound like she could really help us either way.

So it seems like I'm on my own. It's difficult to work with him at all amidst all of the distractions, and even when I CAN get his attention, I can't find a reward that's worthwhile to him anymore- all he wants to do is get to the livestock and to Culley. That is all that matters anymore. He's not affectionate, he doesn't even act like he sees us when we're around....he just stares out at the livestock intently, 24/7. That's it.

I just don't know what to do with him. I love this dog, I'm not giving him up, but I also can't relegate him to life in a crate or on a chain. I can build a secure outdoor kennel if need be (covered, concrete floor so he can't dig out), but it's going to take some time to save up to build it...in the meantime, I don't know what to do.

Here is a short break down of what we're doing right now:

-Crated/Tied whenever he's unsupervised. He hates this, and it is DEFINITELY increasing his frustration, but I don't have any other way to keep him contained and under control when I'm not directly watching him.

- A minimum 2 solid hours a day of exercise. Ogre is not super active and this is plenty.We go for a short walk/jog in the morning, and then do flirtpole until he wears himself out.

-An hour of training a day, broken up into 20 minute increments. We've gone back to basics- very basic obedience, etc. I clicker train.

-NILIF.

-Extra socialization. Since he's decided that he doesn't care about people anymore, we've been taking him everywhere we can. Whenever someone stops to say "Hi" to him we ask that they give him a treat. It's our attempt to spark some kind of interest in human interaction again.

Any help is GREATLY appreciated. Constructive criticism is fine. But please, if you have anything negative to say that isn't *clearly* helpful, (that means no "but I meant that very obvious jab in the most respectful way possible, teehee!) do not post it in this thread. Thank you.

corvus

Posted : 8/1/2007 5:01:06 AM

Oh dear, that sounds dreadful!

Obviously, it's a little hard to know what's going on and what might work over the internet, so I'm just going to throw up a whole bunch of ideas and see if anything sounds good to you.

If this was me, the first thing I would ask myself is, what is he trying to tell me? Why has he changed his behaviour? IMHO, any sudden change in behaviour is your animal trying to tell you something. Hopefully, it's just a matter of figuring it out. Not easy sometimes!

My next question would be, what does he want? What is it about Culley and the livestock that keeps his attention? Why is it so interesting?

If I could answer that, I'd ask, can I provide the same thing somehow?

Is it possible that he wants to spend more time with you? My mother's Swedish Vallhund has suddenly gone through a similar change. He's 6, I think. He abruptly decided that chasing kangaroos was the only thing he wanted to do aside from hang out with my mother. When mother leaves, he becomes hellbent on getting out of the yard and he bloody well finds a way out somehow, no matter how secure the fences were a few moments ago. Once he's out, he trots off to the bush and chases kangaroos until 4 in the morning, when he finds he's exhausted and heads on home. Obviously, not good. At the moment, my mother is keeping him crated whenever she leaves the property, because the moment she's gone, he's off. He gets plenty of exercise, but he knows there are exciting things out there on the other side of the fence and if there's no chance of spending time with his favourite person, he would far prefer to be out there doing exciting things. It's become a bit of an obsession, but I think it originally stemmed from a strong prey drive with no outlets. He's not allowed near my rabbits because he terrorises them, but he does find anything that came from the rabbits to be really exciting. Do you think Ogre would be interested in a toy stuffed with hair or something similar from the livestock? Mum's vallhund is very attentive if he might get to look at some rabbit fur. If nothing else, it might serve to make the livestock a little more commonplace and boring.

It looks like you're already doing anything else that I might try. I think it's important to spend as much time with Ogre as possible. Hopefully you'll learn more about him and why he's behaving strangely. A couple of times my hare has gone through periods where he suddenly doesn't want me near him and is terrified of everyone and is waking me up at night with noisy, restless, attention-seeking behaviour. It was really hard to work out what his issue was. I just kept trying different things until something seemed to help. I found that the best thing for him was a change of pace. I'd send him to my mother's busy household for a couple of weeks to get all the jitters out of him. But then, he's wild, so there's probably no comparison, there.

I hope something in there was a help or gave you some ideas. Just be persistant and be comfortable with the necessary mitigative measures in the meantime. This might just be adolescent obnoxiousness. Sometimes it can come on later in big breeds.

corvus

Posted : 8/1/2007 5:08:35 AM

Oh, I just thought of something else that might help.

I think sometimes it can help if you take your dog into some dense forest with narrow little game trails and the likes. It can do a lot to remind them to pay attention to you. In Ogre's case, I guess it wouldn't be helpful to let him off leash, but you could put him on a dragline. If you pick a place with dense enough bush, the dog really has to follow your lead along the paths because it's the easiest way to travel. My mother's troublesome vallhund loves nothing more than racing along game trails with a person in tow. I'm the only one that will do it with him, but he seems to view me as a hunting buddy as a result. He seems to like sharing his foraging adventures, and it probably improves our relationship.

mrv

Posted : 8/1/2007 7:54:08 AM

I would consider a floored, roofed and screened ( for vision) kennel run. I would likely use the kong, raw bones, and other long term chewing items to help refocus his attention. The interactive toys with his kibble for the day might be an option.

One less expensive option would be to use cattle panels for all sides, roof and floor. The only problem, they can get their muzzle through the square enough to bite if a dog came to fence fight. It does however deal with the stress that builds with tieing. I would make sure the placement was off limits to all other dogs.

You might want to run a thyroid check and full blood panel. Might go so far as xrays to rule out skeletal abnormalities that may be painful.

mudpuppy

Posted : 8/1/2007 8:51:29 AM

how old is he?

some of his behavior sounds almost OCD-like.

rwbeagles

Posted : 8/1/2007 9:04:27 AM

Hon you really REALLY need to get a Thyroid panel done...MSU or Dodds either one. You need to know that this is not motivated by anything internally.

Honestly the hatred of Culley with the breed is common and not really anything that can be helped. I agree the floored topped kennel...prefereably a Preifert type would be the thing to do NOW.

The top reason Akitas get turned in to rescue is that they are aggressive with other animals or they have killed cats, etc. This isn't something that can always be helped.

That he isn't interested in people and affection is quite worrisome to me...and all the more reason to get him checked out for thyroid issues AND perhaps..neurological issues. He is a dog with undermarkings and it's not unheard of things to go wrong mentally in dogs with that patterning in other breeds...as far as OCD like behaviors etc.

Ratsicles

Posted : 8/1/2007 9:12:36 AM

Thanks all so much for the advice. I'll post a longer reply later today when I have time- just wanted to pop in really quick and see if there were any replies.

We'll make an appointment for him to have a thyroid panel and bloodwork done ASAP. I'll reply more in depth later. [

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dogslyfe

Posted : 8/1/2007 9:29:25 AM

I totally agree on the panel. The other thing I think would be helpful at this point would be for him to have *absolutely no access* to seeing livestock. I'd crate him in the house, and take him outside on a leash - where he cannot see or stare at anything. You're going to want to put yourself back in the picture, and I'm thinking a good place to start would be taking away his opportunity to stare at the stock. I would try to become the center of his universe again, and part of that process is going to involve getting his focus off of the stock.

You may want to PM brookcove - she may have some suggestions.

Ixas_girl

Posted : 8/1/2007 10:01:44 AM

Would something like a calming help or make it worse?

probe1957

Posted : 8/1/2007 10:15:13 AM

As others have suggested, obviously you want to rule out any physical problems first. Beyond that, your options appear to be very limited. You can't find anyone to help you and you don't have the money to pay them if you could. Furthermore, it seems to me, a lot of things that might HELP THE DOG, are things you aren't willing to consider. Meanwhile, your dog, by your own admission, is getting worse and worse. Quite a dilemma.

Akita is a difficult breed and certainly not for everyone. Perhaps, given your limitations and the rapid downward spiral this dog is going through, for the good of the dog, you need to seriously consider if this dog, at this time, is right for you.

cakana

Posted : 8/1/2007 10:34:47 AM

I totally agree with the thyroid check. It didn't stop all the fighting between my 2 girls but it truly made a huge difference when we put Sassy on medication. The other thing I wanted to mention is as Laura (dogslyfe) pointed out not letting him see the stock, I'd also try to prevent any opportunity for him to see Culley. When we were having our worst problems, Sassy would fixate on Buffy and I'm no mind reader but I could see the anxiety it was causing. The behaviorist we met with also recommended the separation (unless supervised) without the opportunity to see each other. We fortunately had an ideal set up for managing that, so it hasn't been a problem.

rwbeagles

Posted : 8/1/2007 10:36:16 AM

Priefert sell isolation panels for it's kennels...likely a good option and it will block much of the view.

espencer

Posted : 8/1/2007 10:37:19 AM

Even when you say you are not whilling to re home your dog you need to do what is best for him, re homing Ogre will be the best solution, it will be better for him to live peacefully in another home than in a continuously stressed state of mind and frustration

dogslyfe

Posted : 8/1/2007 10:44:17 AM

I wanted to mention is as Laura (dogslyfe) pointed out not letting him see the stock, I'd also try to prevent any opportunity for him to see Culley.

Totally, totally agree with this! I suspect that part of what may be going on is Ogre re-directing his frustration to Culley. I read where you were already rotating them, but I'd try (like Cathy suggests) to make it so that Ogre cannot even see Culley for the time being. It sounds like also maybe Ogre is in a constant state of arousal - and that worries me.

Chuffy

Posted : 8/1/2007 11:07:42 AM

Once you've ruled out the physical, I'm going to go out on a limb now and I'm going to suggest a book that migh tnot be all that popular.... The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell.

The reason I suggest that book is because a) she deals with dogs that have realised/decided they can do whatever they want and apparently have NO interest in their owners; b) I am fairly sure she has dealt sucessfully with your breed and c) she does not use physical methods, she never involves any level of pain or fear in her approach.

Whether her approach would be successful or not *???* but it might be worth a try. Try your library for her book, or PM me and I'll send you a copy, or give you a breakdown of her approach to see if it sounds like something your comfy with.... also so you have something to work with for the time being until you get your hands on a copy and get chance to actualy read it - I appreciate you dont have that much time spare in your day with all your animals.