Ogre

Firstly, I just want to say how sorry I am that you're having such a difficult time. It's clear you are devoted to this dog and making it work and I can feel your frustration. I'm so sorry.

These are just a few thoughts I had while reading your post.

ORIGINAL: Ratsicles
He went from a wonderful dog before we moved to a 110 pound monster in the last month and a half.

This sounds to me as though his "change" was coincidental to your move. Have you thought about what else changed from his perspective that could be causing this? For example, was he in a fenced yard before? Was he allowed in the house and now he's not? Is there carpet or other possible environmental factors that changed with the move? Does he miss something from the other place? Did he have a "special place" or special friend there? Did his food change?

If our electric fence worked properly, alot of our problems with him would be solved.

Hopefully a kennel as you suggested will be better than being tied and crated. But I don't think you can hope to solve issues with a problem dog as long as he's tied. (Please understand that that's not a dig. We all know what being tied up can do to a dog who's emotionally stable, let alone a dog who's having problems. But I realize you have no choice right now and I'm not judging you about that. Sometimes there just aren't other options and I totally understand that.)

He absolutely hates Culley.

This is so sad! Is there any way to completely separate them? Out of sight from each other until you can figure out what's going on? Most likely, he "thinks" Culley is to blame for whatever is making him miserable...

Frankly, I'm hoping you find something physical that can be treated, but I tend to agree with you that this is behavioral.

Unfortunately, I have nowhere TO work on this with him- there are distractions everywhere out here. Outside, he can see chickens and goats and rabbits and the neighbor's horses- inside, all he can think about is finding Culley.

For a while, I was driving Jaia a few miles away just to have a place without distractions so I could work with him. That might be an option for you.

He was the biggest baby in the WORLD before we moved- he was honestly the best behaved dog I've ever had.

Again, what the heck happened to his world when you moved? How heartbreaking for you!

He's not affectionate, he doesn't even act like he sees us when we're around....he just stares out at the livestock intently, 24/7. That's it.

That poor kid! This sounds like OCD. Have you tried T-Touch? Rescue Remedy? Feeding him by hand to get some focus back on you...

And I don't advocate drugs (or a shock collar) except under very extreme cases and as a last resort, but in this case... I look forward to seeing what the vet says.

It sounds to me as though you're doing everything right. I wish you all the luck in the world in finding the cause and treating this problem. I feel for both of you! I'll be watching to see how it goes.

I'm most curious about all the things that changed with the move.  It sounds like the move turned his world upside down, in ways that are obvious to him but perhaps hard for us people to "see."  I think he might be unresposive to people because he's such a high state of freak out.  If he's been great before, he'll probably respond again if he can calm down.

Did you have livestock before?  If you didn't, that may be the big issue.  If you did, have the amounts or kinds of livestock changed?  Could he be "copeteing" (in his mind) with Culley for the livestock?  How is Culley with him?  How is Culley with the livestock?

Other than the livestock, how is the situation after the move different?  It sounds behavioral, and if you can figure out what triggered this you might be able to alter the environment to help him.

[&o]I am so sorry that you are going through such difficulties right now.   I totally agree with the thyroid thing.  JJ was very fear aggressive when we got him (likely due to a tail trauma and eventual amputation and untreated bone spurs and arthritis issue).  BUT.. we also found that his thyroid level was almost not high enough to even read so he is now on thyroid medication.  His whole attitude has done a drastic turn around and whether this is due to his pain issues being addressed, his thyroid back in check, or being comfortable in a loving house again (or a combination of all of the above…) who knows!  BUT.. it is definitely worth checking out.
 
I would look at the kennel option as well as Chuffy#%92s book suggestion and see where this takes you.  You have my sympathies for your difficult situation. I have had to return several greys that I fostered in hopes of adopting them simply due to them being aggressive with my cats and deciding it wasn't worth risking my cats safety. 
 
My stepson also desperately needed a temporary home for his pit mix after he and his wife were splitting.  He is in the military and not around enough right now to care for the dog. The wife said she couldn#%92t take the dog and so to avoid taking the dog to the shelter, we tried for almost a month to slowly acclimate this dog to our home (this was before getting JJ and Pru.. so we only had cats). The dog was so fixated on the cats, that even crated, our cat who has no fear of any dog, wouldn#%92t even come downstairs, yet alone in the same room.  After numerous attempts to get these animals acclimated, we decided it wasn#%92t worth it. Our cats safety was more important.  He took the dog back and long story short, a year later and another move, and he again needs a temporary home for this dog.  We just can#%92t do it, especially now that we have greyhounds again.  He MIGHT seriously have to end up rehoming the dog with a stranger or taking her to a rescue since no one else in his family seems to be willing to do anything to help him.[:@]
 
I still feel horrible that we couldn#%92t take this sweet dog.. but in the end, if she were to ever harm one of our other animals I would never be able to forgive myself . []
 
[sm=crossfingers.gif]I will be keeping my fingers crossed for you that you can get some answers and most importantly some solutions that will work for the safety of all of you and all of your animals.   
 
GOOD LUCK!      

Several suggestions in addition to the kennel and thyroid testing reccommendatiosn which I also highly suggest.
 
- Get a "Calming Cap" for Ogre to wear when he might be able to see stock and/or Culley.  it may not work, but if it does it will greatly increase your ability to focus him back on you.
 
- Try using a different exercise method than flirt pole work - flirt poles work on the prey drive and really encourage its expression and that is likely the basis for a lot of his intensity around stock.  Perhaps hiking of fetch?  Training sessions?
 
- Start working with him on obedience and attention off the property if you can, then gradually work closer - you're likely above his threshold for proximity to stock, even if he can't see them since he can probably still smell and hear them while on the property.
 
 
 
 

You might consider putting him on anti-anxiety medicine for a few weeks to jump start your work with him. Consult your vet.

My suggestions:
 
1) I think you should reconsider the training methods that you categorize as "harsh".  You say he shuts down for days...perhaps he is learning to be submissive as a result of the training?  I wouldn't rule out any training method that you haven't given a really good shot at, at this point.  NILIF and clicker methods are not working.  He may need a serious "come to Jesus" meeting.  I think you should have the lady come who wants $300 for the consult.  You live in the boonies, people have to pay for their gas and their extra time to meet with you.  This isn't their fault - they have to eat, too.  Give the shock collar a try if she suggests it.
 
2) Rehome the dog.  I think that your lifestyle just does not match with the needs of an Akita.  He is under a tremendous amount of stress between the move, the livestock, and the dog aggression.  This goes against almost all the situational advice out there regarding owning this breed - poor generalization, extreme prey drive, and extreme dog aggression.  It's just who they are.  It doesn't mean that you're giving up on him. 

I like Mudpuppy's suggestion of putting him on something to take the edge off while you re-train/train him.  I know when they suggested it for Willow they said it wouldn't completely knock her out all day just make her less anxious so she could focus on what she was supposed to.  They usually recommend it for about 6-8 weeks at first.  And, the one they gave her Clomicalm wasn't that expensive for a short term thing.
 
I'm taking notes because we are going to be moving in a couple of months and I'm hoping Willow doesn't act just like Ogre.

Ratcicles, I can totally understand where you are coming from.  I've been around an Akita that wasn't happy before and they act just like a grizzly bear-and it is frightening.

First, the medical issue needs to be addressed.  Period.  If this is something chemical within him, nothing will change-and it doesn't matter if you paid a behaviorist a million dollars.

Secondly, his pent up frustration at being crated and tied up IS making things much worse.  The akita is a super proud breed and they have an inherent need to be the protector, the hunter, the patroller of property.  If this need is not met, the dog will redirect that energy into another venue.

Ogre sounds like he's about 3yrs or 4 years old.  It sounds like, to me, that he is giving himself a job.  That job is eliminate Culley, and to destroy your livestock.  This is no easy task to redirect him into a healthier outlet.

Perhaps you could do a search for some rescue organizations that specialize in Akitas and develop a correspondence with someone that might be a bit more breed "savvy" WRT to the Akitas.  I am quite sure that Ogre is not the only Akita that has ever experienced these types of problems and challenges.  Some dogs, like the Akita, are not-from a behavioral standard-the same as other dogs. 

I wish I could give you more advice and offer you a bit more hope.  I think your stress in dealing with all these particular situations adds to Ogre's stress as well.  I'm sorry this is happening to you.

i agree with complete isolation!
 
i've had prey drive problems on a MUCH smaller scale. used to keep my sister's guinea pig in my bathroom and moca would be COMPLETELY focused on the guinea pig instead of me. isolating her from it did the trick. but even that took time.
 
i'm also not sure if rehoming would even be a good idea. i'm by no means an expert on akitas but if they have troubles generalizing, then putting him in a new home with a new family, wouldnt that make matters even worse? and who would take a problem akita and be willing to work with him? it just doesnt sound like a good idea.
 
so yeah, get him vet checked. if everything turns out ok physically, put your time and efford into buidling a kennel that will isolate him from the stock and the dog he is acting agressively towards..

I think rehoming is unnecessary. I've followed your Ogre stories since you got him and this new behaviour just isn't him. I think the worst thing you could do is go back on your sensible decision to forsake 'harsh' training methods. They don't work on dogs like Akitas, and I know you know that. Also, I've met some Akitas that are not very driven by prey or dog aggression at all. It's not an "Akita thing" that you should expect necessarily.

I think, medical problems aside, stress is probably a big factor, and I agree that your stress is probably feeding Ogre's. Prey drive is a difficult thing, but it's not a hopeless thing, if that's what the problem is. My mother's vallhund has pretty much forgotten there are rabbits living in his home. When he comes across them accidentally, he's not nearly as intense as he used to be. Complete screening is pretty important for that to work, though, I think.

Just hang in there!

My newest rescue, a Husky showed a big interest in our cats and rabbit, but I used noise aversion as part of his training, and it worked like a charm. In conjuction with that I used a marker noise"Eh,eh".......now, he sniffs the cats as they walk by him, when the bunny moves he looks up at the cage, but the intense fixation is gone.
 
Is Culley neutered, I remember you saying Ogre is neutered, but I don't remember you saying Culley was neutered?
I always get any new rescue neutered right away, because it throws off a pack of dogs quiet a bit when a dog that hasn't been neutered is on the premises.

Thanks all for the help and advice.

I sat down last night and really wracked my brain on all of this. Given what I know of Ogre and his personality, I think I've figured out what's going on here.

Let me prefrace this by saying that Ogre (and akitas in general) are NOT, behaviorally and mentally, like most other dogs- some of the conclusions I've made here may seem to some people to be stretching it a bit, but those with Akita experience will tell you- Akitas do not forget things and they do not necessarily forgive like other dogs do. They are very proud dogs and when they feel slighted, they don't let it go. I think that they are able to make certain connections in their mind that other dogs are not necessarily able to make- my experience with Ogre has definitely shown this to be the case.

Alright. This all started with us getting Culley. Ogre saw this as "slight against him #1." This was almost 2 weeks before we moved to this house, around the first of June. He met Culley with no problem on neutral ground, but when Ogre saw that he was to be living with us, he was horribly offended. He ignored me for several days completely- if I spoke to him or showed him any affection he simply got up and left the room. He was not aggressive to Culley, but it was very obvious that he did NOT like him. I honestly thought this was something he would get over in time- but again, Akitas, when they feel they have been slighted, do not usually forget.

He started acting out in general because of Culley. Now, I have seen this with Ogre before- this is a very definite pattern that I know all too well with him. I do something that offends him or hurts his feelings, and he acts out for DAYS. Something I do upsets him, and he forgets house training, is generally grumbly, he sulks, he gets horribly irritable, he destroys this in the house- he develops alot of stress related, SA-like behaviors- this can be from something as simple as giving him less than another dog gets of a certain treat- he honestly keeps tabs on things like that. ANYTHING he considers to be unfair results in these behaviors.

Once he starts with these behaviors, one of two things happen. If I spend the next few days sucking up to him, he'll return to his normal happy self. IF I get frustrated with how silly he's being, and yell at him, snap at him, or in any way show that I am upset with him, he gets worse. Much worse. Until I stop being snotty with him (usually I'm just stressed about everything he's spent a few days destroying) he continues on his downward path. 99% of the time, once I realize that I'm perpetuating the behavior and stop, it only takes a couple of days for him to get better.

I want to make it clear though that these are NOT dominance behaviors that he's showing. He is NOT trying to dominate me. Ogre doesn't want to run things- he wants equality. Not equality with humans, he never questions his place with us- but equality with the other dogs. He watches VERY carefully every interaction with the other dogs and if he EVER feels that he somehow get less than one of the other dogs- less food, less time, less praise- he begins to act this way. He doesn't seem to want special treatment or extra consideration- he just wants to know that what he's getting is exactly the same. He's like a 5 year old that has a tantrum because he thinks his sibling got a bigger half of a cookie than he did. That's Ogre to a T.

I don't know what about Culley upset him. He was fine when we introduced Butter, he was fine when we introduced Madison, he was fine when we introduced Chief a few weeks ago. He chose to dislike Culley for whateevr reason and I'm pretty sure he's never going to let it go. That's fine- I knew when I got potentially dog aggressive breeds that this was very likely to come up. We're still adjusting, but we'll get used to it. These things take time.

So. The next problem in his head. He was already upset, already acting out, and then we moved him to this new place. The second he got out here, he killed some chickens. I can see now some things that were leading up to this point- after freaking out about Culley, he forgot his house training and was even refusing some of his basic obedience- I think that this is just another aspect of his training that he let go after Culley got here. Prior to this, he was completely trustworthy with small animals- he wanted to chase cats if they ran from him, but other than that he was fine- we taught him a very good "leave it" and a very good recall, and he was at the point where he would let the chickens walk on his back and peck food out of his food bowl WHILE he was eating- so this chicken killing thing was very new.

So. He killed the chickens and I FREAKED out at him. He had one of the chicken in his mouth, and, in tears and completely freaking out, I started smacking him in the face trying to get him to let it go. This was "Slight #2." I have NEVER, ever hit him before and I could clearly see the disbelief in his face. Now that I think about it, he has not shown much affection towards me- save for one or two occasions when we were playing and he forgot that he was supposed to be mad at me- since that day.

Slight #3 happened a few weeks later. After he had his horrible fight with Culley, they had to be seperated. Since they can't even be in the house together for the most part, I decided one of them was going to have to stay primarily outside. Since Ogre was having so many problems, pooping on the floor, destroying things, etc- I decided that Culley would get the majority of inside time and Ogre would mostly stay out. This was a huge, HUGE mistake. Ogre has always HATED being left outside. He wants to go outside to potty and immediately come back in. To him, being stuck outside while the rest of the family is inside is the biggest insult in the world. So he decided, "Fine. If I'm stuck out here, not important enough to be part of the family, I'll go make some fun for myself. Screw you guys." and that's when he started chasing livestock. I know that most of you will say that a dog 's mind doesnt work that way- but I promise you, HIS does. Akitas are honestly NOT like other dogs.

For some reason, at this point, I STILL didn't make the connection in my mind as to what was going on. In hindsight, I should have simply rotated them every couple of hours instead of forcing one to stay primarily outside- that was stupid. That's a change I'm going to make today.

Slight #4- Muzzling him. He could not believe this horrible contraption I kept strapping to his face. His behavior got worse after I started making him wear it. He is beyond insulted and has refused to even look at me since I bought it. I think the muzzle needs to go away.

Slight #5- Tieing him up outside. He doesn't mind tie-outs if he's jkust going to the bathroom and then coming back in, but being stuck on one is pretty horrible in his mind. He thinks it's completely unfair.

Slight#6- The electric fence. Some people are going to think this is a stretch, but I PROMISE it isn't. He studied us the entire time we put the fence up. Right after we finished installing it, he tried to jump the fence and was shocked on it. Instead of being upset at the fence, he turned and glared at ME- then went inside and hid in the bathroom and refused to come out for a few hours. He knows we installed the fence, and he associates the horrible thing with US....and he is completely offended. In his mind, the electric fence is no better than a shock collar or being beaten. I think the electric fence needs to go away.

Wow. It all seems so clear to me now. This stuff all happened so gradually that I didn't make the connection- I think that everything that is happening now is just a much larger-scale version of one of his little temper tantrums. I can see how I have been approaching this wrong now.

I have been pretty cold towards him lately. I am guilty of yelling at him. I am guilty of saying rude things to him. Instead of trying to understand where he was coming from, I was trying to force him to just shut up and do what I wanted him to- which has not EVER worked on him. Ogre is a very willing PARTNER....but he is not happy with the role of "pet." He will do what you ask if you ask nicely- but the "Do as I say because I am your master and shut up" concept has never appealed much to him. I have had the completely wrong attitude through all of this and I see that now.

To those who think I should go with the behaviorist who wanted to use a shock collar on him- do you see now why that wouldn't work? When I got Ogre, I used traditional training methods. I was also a big believer in the whole "dominance" thing and I actually was abig follower of Cesar Millan. (Hate to throw names around, but it's true.) Ogre changed that for me. If you get harsh with Ogre, he flops down on his belly, his eyes glaze over, and he goes somewhere else mentally. He completely shuts down. He will have none of it. I am 100% certain that if I put a shock collar on Ogre and started alpha rolling him, he would be attacking people in a matter of days. This is not a matter of me not wanting to pay the behaviorist that's willing to come out here- this is a matter of me knowing my dog and knowing that those methods will only make him worse.

**Content removed. Personal material belongs in PM.** Ogre and I have been through ALOT together. When I got him he was a neurotic, fear aggressive mess. He had never set foot inside a house before and he couldn't even walk up to everyday objects without urinating in fear. He snapped at strangers who tried to pet him. Walking through crowds resulted in him urinating and defecating in fear and then completely shutting down. Clicker training and alot of patience turned out to be his savior- he went from the dog described above to a completely confidant, sweet, wonderful dog. It took ALOT of work, we had some setbacks, but we can now go out in public with zero problems. He accept attention from stranger, even obnoxious screaming children, without the least bit of fear. I know that I CAN be successful with this dog, because I have been in the past. We have, quite honestly, been through much worse than this and I know that we will get through it. I can see now that I have been taking the wrong approach and I can see ALOT of changes that are going to be made TODAY.

Yes, I am stressed out right now- but I don't think that's reason enough to dump my dog. [8|] We will get through this- I feel so much better now that I've sat down and thought about it. I can completely see what's going on here and I have a pretty good idea some things I can do to make it better. I really think that Ogre just needs to feel special again, more part of the family, and he will be fine. I have seen this in him before- just not on such a large scale.


Thank you all for the advice so far- and please, keep it coming. We ARE still going to take him to the vet for a thyroid panel and bloodwork- he has an appt for Monday- but I am thinking, especially now, that this is all a culmination of what he sees as me treating him unfairly.

ETA: Yep, Culley is neutered too. His foster mom had it done before we adopted him. [] And, Ogre uses valerian to control anxiety- perhaps we'll try Rescue Remedy or soemthing better. Either way I'll talk to the vet about anxiety control when he goes in.

To those who asked how old he is- He's probably about 2. (The vet thought he was less than a year when we got him.) He was 85 pounds when I adopted him last October (and was actually slightly overweight) and 24 inches at the shoulder. He's now 110 pounds and 27 inches at the shoulder, still growing, and he's all muscle- so he's young enough that he's still growing.

Ratsicles, are all your dogs neutered?

I second the suggestion for the Gentle Leader Calming Cap.
[link>http://www.sitstay.com/store/health/anxiety.shtml]http://www.sitstay.com/store/health/anxiety.shtml[/link][/size]
 
ETA:  Do you think he might react to that like he did to the muzzle?

That was a wonderful post to read. And after reading it, I can totally see how Ogre is just so terribly offended and confused with what's been happening that he's flipping out a bit. I love how you know your dogs and I honestly think you know best.  I admire how willing you are to do whatever it takes to make it work. And I can't wait to hear how the immediate changes you're making work out for you both.

You mentioned CM. I'm a huge fan, but never do I take 100% of what a behaviorist or trainer says as gospel. And I think MOST dogs will respond to his methods. But not all. Some dogs have other stuff going on. And it sounds like Ogre might very well be one of those "special" dogs.

One more thing. Take it or leave it. I fostered a greyhound for a year. We adopted him, actually but returned him when another home was found. He's now very happy in a good home. The reason we returned him is that Cara would not accept him. And she didn't get mean, she got SAD. She completely lost her spirit and no amount of special attention or NILIF or any training would help. I tried for a year. My heart couldn't take it. So we made the very difficult decision to rehome the greyhound.

Afterward, Cara brightened up some, but not to her previous wonderful self. It was like she didn't trust me anymore. One day, I sat down with her and apologized to her. I cried and held her and told her just how sorry I was that she felt so badly for a whole year and I couldn't help. I told her that in the future, any dog coming into this house would have to have her approval. And suddenly, she brightened back up and was as spirited as ever, and has remained so ever since, even though we've brought 2 new dogs into the home.

I know this is all "woo-woo" and may sound strange, and I can't scientifically account for the success of talking to an animal in English, but I think occasionally, a dog comes along with a special "sensitivity" and they fall outside the norm as far as training and behavior. It takes someone special and some special communication to bond and work with that dog. I think Ogre might be such a dog. What I'm getting at is (if you haven't already), you might let him know (in your language and emotion) how you feel about him and what's been happening. Like I said, take it or leave it.

Good luck to you.