Ogre

ah, the terrible two's. Many a dog completely changes at that age anyway, and you've been throwing considerable change and stress into his life on top of that. That's a lot of new dogs to acquire that rapidly, too, before you'd even finished raising Ogre and cementing your relationship with him. Let me make a bound-to-be unpopular suggestion: Have you considered re-homing Culley for Culley's own protection and to lower the stress level in the household?  How are you going to feel when Ogre kills him, which it sounds like sooner or later will happen?   
 
You are aware that most Akita people strongly warn against trying to keep another male dog with a male akita?

Rats...so typical of the breed. You are right...those that have never owned one, will have a hard time grasping how they work. Even working with one in a traning class is not comparison to living with one.
 
Your post makes a lot of sense...BUT IMO he IS trying to dominate...because he is acting out to become your SOLE FOCUS, to control your actions towards him, and the other dogs. To say a male Akita does not want to be top dog is well, not making sense to me. Unless there is a FEMALE Akita in the household...it doesn't sound right.
 
Culley sounds like a nice dog...and I really think more than anyone in this...HE stands the most chance of getting hurt. I would consider...since he IS such a nice dog...looking for another home for him where he is not a target. They will NEVER tolerate each other..ever...I think you know that. It will ALWAYS be a slight danger to him being on the same property as Ogre. I think you should consider it, seriously.
 
 

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I wish you the best of luck with all the animals and the multitude of other issues you're dealing with. You're going to need it.

Ratsicles, are all your dogs neutered?

Ogre, Axl, and Culley are neutered. Pepito, Butter, and Chief are not neutered. I have no excuse for Pepito- he needs to be done. Butter is 8 months old and 75 pounds and I'm waiting until he's 2 for his neuter because of his size. Same for Chief, who's not quite 8 weeks old yet.

I don't think this is a hormonal thing though- Ogre and Butter are absolute best friends. Ogre also LOVES Chief, though they'e not allowed to interact much since Chief doesn't need to be socialized to other dogs. He is pretty submissive towards Pepito.

You are aware that most Akita people strongly warn against trying to keep another male dog with a male akita?

All of my dogs are male, and he gets along fine with all of them except Culley- but yes, I am aware that most Akita people are against it.

BUT IMO he IS trying to dominate...because he is acting out to become your SOLE FOCUS, to control your actions towards him, and the other dogs.

I didn't really think of it that way, but I think you're right...I guess it is a form of dominance.

Culley sounds like a nice dog...and I really think more than anyone in this...HE stands the most chance of getting hurt. I would consider...since he IS such a nice dog...looking for another home for him where he is not a target. They will NEVER tolerate each other..ever...I think you know that. It will ALWAYS be a slight danger to him being on the same property as Ogre. I think you should consider it, seriously.

Sigh...I don't know. In the two months I've had Culley, DH and I have gotten SUPER attached to him already. He is an amazing dog- zero behavioral problems, a jow to be around. I've wanted a pit my entire life and he is my dream dog. But I know you're right...the situation, as it stands right now, is dangerous for him.

I think that right this second it's too soon to make that decision. I have some things I want to try with Ogre first. I'll try making a point of giving Ogre more attention than Culley, letting him know (or at least letting him think) that he's 100% #1 on my list, and see what happens. I don't expect them to ever get along, or to ever be able to be around each other, but I THINK, based on what I know of Ogre, that I can convince him to leave well enough alone and ignore Culley's presence as long as they're never within view of each other. I know that many, MANY pit bull people who own multiple dog aggressive pits manage to keep them safely seperated, so it can be done. It'll just take some rearranging of the way we do things.

But if it seems like it's not going to work...and that Ogre just will not accept Culley in any way...I'll consider rehoming Culley. Doing so will be isnanely hard, but if he is going to be continuously in extreme danger, I'll do it. I want to try a few things first though, and see if we can manage this before I make that decision.


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I second the suggestion for the Gentle Leader Calming Cap.
[linkhttp://www.sitstay.com/store/health/anxiety.shtml]http://www.sitstay.com/store/health/anxiety.shtml[/link]

ETA: Do you think he might react to that like he did to the muzzle?

Probably. He hates things on his face, clothing, and anything like that- it upsets him quite a bit.

Rats...I know you think you can. But trust me...I have been on so many Akita lists with people who have done as you have...separation...and it only takes ONCE...and that once may be when both dogs are like 7 years old. But to think Ogre will have forgotten...is folly. He smells Culley on you everday...he smells his scent and urine in the yard...and all over the other dogs too. It's NOT like both these dogs are PB's...which have at their core...a real need to please and make people happy. One of these dogs is a breed that is bred to operate on it's own...that while it loves and is loyal to it's people...WILL act against their very well known wishes....because they think they know better than you do. Period.
 
Try what you are going to try...but please keep the above in the back of your mind.

Rats, Gina makes some very good points which you should strongly consider.  Akitas do not forget.  If Ogre hates Culley, Culley's life is in danger.  Period. 
 
Since Culley hasn't been a problem, and is a loving dog, finding a home for him should be super simple-and it would enable him to lead a normal life, lessen the stress at your home, and let Ogre have some semblance of normalcy in his life as well.
 
IMO, one of the two needs a new home-if the medical tests come back and show that nothing is out of whack with Ogre.

I am actually for adopting out Culley, he is the more adoptable one.....I know having to get rid of a dog hurts one's heart, but you would be really heart broken if there was a terrible fight, and then a death......you would never be able to forgive yourself....
 
Sticking Ogre in a lot and keeping him separated will not improve his hate for Culley, nor will it improve his frustration......

I know that many, MANY pit bull people who own multiple dog aggressive pits manage to keep them safely seperated, so it can be done. It'll just take some rearranging of the way we do things.

 
Well mine happen to be lab mixes, but we do manage to keep them safely separated.  Still, my personal thoughts are that one of my dogs is always being shortchanged and for that I feel badly.  I wanted to rehome Sassy when she and Buffy started fighting, but DH had fallen hard for Sassy and couldn't bear the thought of giving her up.  I've had a few talks with Buffy and told her I hope she knows we love her and I'm sorry that what we thought would be a buddy for her turned into the demon dog [].  Actually my 2 get along fine much of the time, but like Ogre, Sassy can get an attitude about something and she will take it out on Buffy.  If you scold Sassy for anything, she immediately redirects her focus and sometimes aggression on Buffy.  The very last fight they had seemed to be from Buffy coming into the side run area, where Sassy stays when we're gone.  Buffy had done that every day for the last 5 yrs, but for some reason Sassy didn't want her in there.  There's an igloo doghouse in that run and when Sassy chases Buffy, she runs in there.  Immediately after the fight and for the next week or so, Sassy would poop right in front of the entry to that igloo.  It was if she was saying "let's see how you like running in there next time" [8|]  Dealing with dogs that don't get along is more stress than I care to ever go thru again, so after these 2, we'll be a 1 dog family.  I wish you luck in any of the different methods you try. 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Rats, Gina makes some very good points which you should strongly consider.  Akitas do not forget.  If Ogre hates Culley, Culley's life is in danger.  Period. 

Since Culley hasn't been a problem, and is a loving dog, finding a home for him should be super simple-and it would enable him to lead a normal life, lessen the stress at your home, and let Ogre have some semblance of normalcy in his life as well.

IMO, one of the two needs a new home-if the medical tests come back and show that nothing is out of whack with Ogre.

Although I know nothing of Akitas, if this is true, it may be best for Culley to find a new home.  However, I understand that this is a decision that you don't want to make right away. 

I guess if you are going to keep them completely seperated you do have a pretty good set up for it--better than most people who decide to crate and rotate.

I don't think that you should completely rule out at least some of these behavioral changes to moving.  Sally's world was turned upside down when we moved.  Jack was only 12 weeks old and it didn't bother him at all.  Sally however, had to be completely rehousebroken, became territorial when she had never been before, and became very, very fearful of pretty much any stranger (she has always had an issue with being timid with strangers, but she had made HUGE improvements---when we moved she reverted back to where she was when we got her).  She even showed a fear she never had before towards things like traffic, etc.  We were walking by the YMCA one day and there had been some kind of emergency and there were fire trucks there with the sirens, etc.  Sally had a total melt-down she was as curled up and low to the ground as she could possibley get and still move and was desperately searching for any way she could flee.  The fire trucks were on the other side of a wide street and we used to live very, very close to a fire department (so close that if we had a front yard, the fire station would have been in it).  She had been closer to fire trucks than this and heard the sirens, etc often.  The only explaination I could come up with for this behavior was the move.

We have been here since the end of October, and she is pretty near back to her old self again but it took lots of work from us and lots of time.  

Ogre, Axl, and Culley are neutered. Pepito, Butter, and Chief are not neutered. I have no excuse for Pepito- he needs to be done. Butter is 8 months old and 75 pounds and I'm waiting until he's 2 for his neuter because of his size. Same for Chief, who's not quite 8 weeks old yet.

I don't think this is a hormonal thing though- Ogre and Butter are absolute best friends. Ogre also LOVES Chief, though they'e not allowed to interact much since Chief doesn't need to be socialized to other dogs. He is pretty submissive towards Pepito.

quote:

You are aware that most Akita people strongly warn against trying to keep another male dog with a male akita?


All of my dogs are male, and he gets along fine with all of them except Culley- but yes, I am aware that most Akita people are against it

 
 
yeah but most dominance-aggression (which is what male akitas do to other male dogs) doesn't start until the dog reaches maturity. Ogre just NOW hit maturity-- his attitude towards other male dogs was unknown until this moment, when he clearly demonstrated a common breed trait towards Culley (how old?). You have a bunch of male dogs, most juveniles. I'm really concerned he's going to start going after each of these dogs, one by one, as they hit maturity. Wow this is even worse than the moving-upset, which I'm sure you could overcome with time.
I think you really need to talk to some highly experienced Akita people.

yeah but most dominance-aggression (which is what male akitas do to other male dogs) doesn't start until the dog reaches maturity. Ogre just NOW hit maturity-- his attitude towards other male dogs was unknown until this moment, when he clearly demonstrated a common breed trait towards Culley (how old?). You have a bunch of male dogs, most juveniles. I'm really concerned he's going to start going after each of these dogs, one by one, as they hit maturity. Wow this is even worse than the moving-upset, which I'm sure you could overcome with time.
I think you really need to talk to some highly experienced Akita people.

 
But Axl is at LEAST 8 years old, and may be as old as 11 or 12. Pepito is 4, and as a chihuahua, he has been mature for a couple of years now. AND he is unneutered....and yet, Ogre is completely submissive towards both of them and gets along with them really well. Yeah, I GUESS he could suddenly become aggressive towards all of my other dogs- but he hasn't shown the slightest inclination to do that at all yet. I really don't think this is a simple matter of him hitting maturity and suddenly hating all other dogs. I think this is him throwing one of his usual temper tantrums, on a much larger scale. I think assuming that he's going to suddenly start attacking all of the other dogs is a bit much to assume at this point- he isn't showing that tendency at all. He hated Culley from day one and I think that's all there is to it. He's pretty well bonded to a few of the other dogs to the point where he gets pretty upset if they're seperated- I don't see any signs right now that he's going to have any issues with them.
 
 
I love Culley. I'm sorry, but I'm just not ready to give him up at this point. I think DH would take it even worse than I would- He's pretty close to Culley, much moreso than he is to the other dogs. If it comes down to it we will consider rehoming him, but I'm seriously just not there yet. I want to try everything else possible first before making that decision.

Ratsicles, I understand what you are saying, nobody wants to give away any of their dogs, but isn't the reality such that if we take in another animal and the other dogs don't get along with the new arrival it is a given that the dog will be re-homed?
I think, I remember you stating the same that you were hoping all would get along, but if Culley was a problem then he would be re-homed......I know you say he is not, but Ogre was there first, and by bringing Culley it created upset in the house to the point of nasty fights.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

ah, the terrible two's. Many a dog completely changes at that age anyway, and you've been throwing considerable change and stress into his life on top of that. That's a lot of new dogs to acquire that rapidly, too, before you'd even finished raising Ogre and cementing your relationship with him. Let me make a bound-to-be unpopular suggestion: Have you considered re-homing Culley for Culley's own protection and to lower the stress level in the household?  How are you going to feel when Ogre kills him, which it sounds like sooner or later will happen?   

You are aware that most Akita people strongly warn against trying to keep another male dog with a male akita?

I really have to second this - I would seriously consider rehoming Culley - same sex aggression in many breeds is NOT uncommon, and it will never get better and it will never be a situation that you can trust the dogs not to fight. You have not had Culley long, and it sounds like Ogre is not really re-homable - I would consider rehoming Culley sooner rather than later before things get too out of hand.

Ogre may be ok with things with other dogs right now- but he is NOWHERE near mature, and he is just escalating in his behavior. My male doberman was wonderful with all males for months, and things are going downhill. It has nothing to do with him being a bad dog, or aggressive. He simply has less tolerance for males (intact ones at that) than other dogs, and that is again, something to be expected.

Your house is an accident waiting to happen - you have three intact males and no good reason to have any of them intact, an aggressive 2 year old Akita who has killed animals in the house already, and you have just added at least two dogs to the house (also male). SOmething has to give, and when that does give, the likelihood is that Ogre is going to seriously injure one of the dogs. He is maturing and growing, and will not tolerate the other dogs as well as he does, that is a guarantee.

I'm with Gina in this one, definitely there is a dominance issue there since you said:

ORIGINAL: Ratsicles
Once he starts with these behaviors, one of two things happen. If I spend the next few days sucking up to him, he'll return to his normal happy self. IF I get frustrated with how silly he's being, and yell at him, snap at him, or in any way show that I am upset with him, he gets worse. Much worse. Until I stop being snotty with him (usually I'm just stressed about everything he's spent a few days destroying) he continues on his downward path. 99% of the time, once I realize that I'm perpetuating the behavior and stop, it only takes a couple of days for him to get better.

What you are doing is pure submissive behavior towards him, if you "challenge" him by "yell at him, snap at him, or in any way show that I am upset with him" then for him you are "challenging" the status he already accomplish with you, you always give up by "once I realize that I'm perpetuating the behavior and stop" so for him he "won" the "challenge" every time

Now i am NOT saying you should be mean at him, but all that "sucking up on him" is absolutely not good for your case

Now when you "yell at him, snap at him, or in any way show that I am upset with him" you are just showing to him that you are unreliable, your emotions control you (i know is hard but thats the way he sees it) and he cant follow a leader that is unpredictible and might "snap" at any moment

One thing i am sure is that dogs do not get offended, he didnt get offended because you got Culley, he might acted different because he wanted to show his status inside your "pack" to the new guy (a status that maybe was high already since the actual "leader" has being "sucking up on him" in the past), if Ogre ignored you that was to prove Culley that he was able to ignore the human that it was supposse to be the "leader"

When you do something that "offends" him of course he will act out, he cant believe someone with less status than him could be doing that, you are again "challeging" him.

I dont remember if you said how Culley is towards him but sometimes just a look can make a dog mad, now if Culley gives "looks" (even by just look directly to his eyes) to him that will make him mad, again, Culley actually maybe is not going to "suck up" on him as other members do and Ogre feels that Culley needs more discipline than others

Another example of him seeing you as an unestable member was when you freaked out because he was having the chicken in his mouth, for him he was doing something so natural as prey drive and didnt understand why you were acting so "irrational", another point for not seeing you as leader

He does not get offended because you toke Culley inside after the fight he is totally fine outside but the simple fact that a lower ranking member chalenged him was a big deal, now if you add that  the lower ranking members teamed up and left "together" that made it worse, he just don understand why lower ranking members "chalenge" him all the time

NILIF = IGNORE if he acts up again DO NOT suck up on him, if he needs to be like that for 3, 5, 10, 20 days thats fine but do not suck up on him, probably it will take a lot of time since before you were always giving up and it worked for him, you said you were doing NILIF before but it might be only half of it as you were not ignoring his tantrums by sucking up on him

Every time you suck up on him when he is upset you are nurturing that behavior, leaders dont suck up on lower ranking members, do not feel bad for that, that will help him to realize that is YOUR house, your rules, your pack, not his, you didnt see but your were "feeding" that behavior, its ok, it happens way too often

"Harsh" techniques does not mean "Alpha Roll" and you should not to and alpha roll AT ALL

I hope you have NOT stopping taking him for a walk, that is REALLY important. You see, in nature, dogs spend much of their time walking as a pack, trying to find food and water. Their very survival is based on walking! Birds fly, fish swim, dogs walk. Walking allows them to have a sense of direction, a sense of accomplishment, a sense of pack comfort. The pack is all about structure and organization.

Domestic dogs live behind walls and no matter how luxurious those walls are, it's still totally unnatural to a dog. So the very best thing you can do for your dog to ensure a close, bonded relationship, a sense of structure and organization, and ultimately a balanced pet is to master the walk and do it often! You bond with your dog every time you go out for a walk, not just exersice, but a walk, that helps also the pack to realize better what is the hierarchy

When you adopt multiple dogs at different times, you must have a clear understanding with the first dog from the start – the dog is the follower, and you are the leader. Not part of the time - all of the time! Once that is established, only then can you bring in a second dog into the mix. Now because you've established a clear relationship with the first "follower” dog, the second dog should be able to sense that in this household, the human is in control. You will find then that both dogs will naturally try to co-exist with one another as your followers. But you might brought Culley when your relationship with Ogre was not as clear as you thought, if one member already was kind of  challenging him, now he has to deal also with another that does not know how the hierarchy is and needs to be shown by Ogre

Ultimately, it's not about the dogs' relationships with each other, it's about their relationship with you and how you set boundaries and limitations. Once you have the two dogs understanding that concept, it will to be much easier to bring dogs number three and four into the home.

ORIGINAL: snownose

Ratsicles, I understand what you are saying, nobody wants to give away any of their dogs, but isn't the reality such that if we take in another animal and the other dogs don't get along with the new arrival it is a given that the dog will be re-homed?
I think, I remember you stating the same that you were hoping all would get along, but if Culley was a problem then he would be re-homed......I know you say he is not, but Ogre was there first, and by bringing Culley it created upset in the house to the point of nasty fights.

I absolutely agree with this as well - whenever I get a new animal, I always put the priority on the EXISTING animals - if the existing animals in the house have to change their lives too much or unhappy, it is NOT fair to them> i have said this with every foster I took in, as well.

Ratsicles, it's a hard situation but you do NOT seem to fully comprehend this and are making excuses. Yes, it DOES HAPPEN that all of a sudden a dog that was previously ok with the other dogs in the house can attack them. You cite how pittie people keep multiple dogs separated - ask them how all of a sudden a dog can go after another dog and not be ok. Ogre is JUST starting to mature, and if this is a sign of things to come, it will only get worse. You're sticking your head in the sand and being selfish - yes you love Culley - love him enough to send him to a safe home and stop getting new dogs while you have Ogre, and focus on him.