Ogre

I don't want to appear to be taking sides here. I'm not. I think all of you have some excellent points and I agree with many of them. But I get the impression you're going to keep badgering Ratsicle until she buckles under TODAY and promises to do just what you say.

 
I agree. I also agree with the popular opinion that re-homing a dog should only be done after careful consideration and after other alternatives have been tried. I believe Ratsicles is doing both of those things.

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I don't really have any advice since I've never had to deal with something like this.  I will say that I have all  the admiration in the world for your fortitude and committment.  When I read the OP, the first thing that popped into my mind was that there's a little something medical going on that isn't showing up in routine vet visits - so yes, I agree with everyone who suggested a thyroid and blood panel.  Maybe even a couple of x-rays wouldn't be out of order.  You never know what's going to show up, or where.  Whatever is causing his problems, I hope someone can get to the bottom of it quickly for you.  Best of luck to all of you. []
 
Joyce

All I can think reading through this is "poor Ogre!"

Consider where I'm coming from: 6 months ago I had an incredibly docile, affectionate, good-with-children papillon. Then he lost his owner, was moved across the country, was living with other people, was exposed to many strange things he'd never seen before (e.g. snow, squirrels, and university dorms), was moved to another household with other people and other animals, and then moved back across the country. He turned into a snappy, snarling biter in many situations. Now his life has settled down a bit and we're making good progress, but still - stress and change can be damaging.

Now here's Ogre, who's had behavioral problems for a long time. You worked hard with him, got him doing well, all was happy. Then you disrupted the balance. You added dogs. You moved, changing his whole world! The chickens in their previous place were off-limits, but here they were in this new place - fair game - and he got in trouble for eating them? Then he's kept restrained all the time, the new dog is given higher status than he is (by being allowed in the house), more scary and unpredictable things are introduced (electric fence), more livestock is added (the horse)... basically everything he knew and trusted about his old world has changed. Is it any wonder his behavior has changed as well?

Think back - what did you do when you first got Ogre that transformed him from a troublemaker into the nice dog you're missing now? And what is different now?

You're painting the picture of a troubled but rehabbed dog being thrown into a chaotic situation and then treated as inferior (in his eyes at least) by the humans he trusted. And it's also sounding like lately your attention has been refocused from him to other animals. I'm guessing that Ogre is feeling lost and confused and just trying to find his place in his world. If I were you, I would switch my attention from acquiring new animals to helping create a safe and predictable environment for Ogre. You know how to work with him - you've done it before. But it seems like of late you've somewhat taken his good behavior for granted, assuming it was a permanent state unaffected by his environment.

And I know you've said your finances are depleted, but a full workup would still be a really good idea. If it's thryoid meds (or something else) versus thinking about rehoming one of your dogs I think it's definitely worth it.

If anyone feels this post was too "mean" or offensive or contentious, just PM me and I'll remove it.

ORIGINAL: Stacita

I don't want to appear to be taking sides here. I'm not. I think all of you have some excellent points and I agree with many of them. But I get the impression you're going to keep badgering Ratsicle until she buckles under TODAY and promises to do just what you say.

I agree. I also agree with the popular opinion that re-homing a dog should only be done after careful consideration and after other alternatives have been tried. I believe Ratsicles is doing both of those things.

 
I'm new here, and I think there's some history here that I'm not altogether up to speed on also.  Maybe that's the reason why Rat seems to be taking every bit of advice personally if it doesn't jive with her thought process.
 
Rat - My only piece to add here is:  I think people are picking up on the fact that you seem overwhelmed, and you don't have the resources to get the help you really need.  I agree that you should try everything you can, but keep in mind that the utmost concern should always be the welfare of your animals, not your own personal sense that you can do this.  You should try hard to maintain perspective and recognize when you cannot do it.
 
Good luck.

ORIGINAL: Ratsicles

you have three intact males and no good reason to have any of them intact

Wrong. Pepito should not be intact right now. The other two are large breed puppies. MANY people with large breed dogs opt to not neuter immature dogs for health reasons. I'm one of them.

One is a mixed breed dog who is already over 8 months, didn't you say? You have no idea how big he will get - and the data shows that neutering at this point potentially causes them to grow 1/4" taller - his growth plates are already closing, he is not a rottie, the rest of the data doesn't apply to him anymore. The fact is, you have a rescued mixed breed that you refuse to neuter. What health reasons are left for him?

What do you mean I "don't fully comprehend this?" I comprehend very well what's going on here, thank you. I NEVER said dogs don't suddenyl turn on other dogs- I NEVER said that it doesn't happen. I am simply saying that knowing what I know of Ogre, which is quite a bit, this doesn't seem to be something that is likely to happen.

Well, pre-move, wouldn't you have said THIS very behavior you see from Ogre was unlikely? Would you ever have imagined you would end up tethering your dog outside after hitting him in the face while he tried to kill your chicken?

If you want to try the "well you don't know it might happen so so get him away from other dogs immediately" angle, then why not seperate ALL dogs from ALL other dogs immediately?

When you live in a high risk situation, sometimes you DO. I have three male dobermans in my house - and right now, this very moment they are all separated. My old male is sleeping up in my room (his choice), my young male is on the couch chewing on a toy, the other is in his crate sleeping. They are NEVER left loose with each other, EVER - if we leave the house, they are either with us or locked away in their crates in completely separate rooms. They do not eat together, they do not ride together loose in cars together (I don't like them riding loose period, but definitely not together). Why? Because I acknowledge that same sex aggression is not only common, but virtually written in my breed standard that it is not to be penalized. There are websites devoted to stuff like this, and I know that my situation could change at any moment. My dogs do not suffer - the older male asks very little from me except for love, food, affection, and to sleep in my closet during thunderstorms. My young male has a very high requirement from me, including hours training, exercising, etc. I have planned what dogs I have in the house (and in fact declined to foster an elderly male that I would have loved to help)  precisely because my own house exists in a tenuous balance where my dogs enjoy their company precisely because they are allowed their own time and there is a strict structure as to what is accepted. There are numerous caged animals, there are 5 cats, all animals are kept safe and no one is allowed to step out of line, because I dictate what is allowed (even for the dog who is not mine, he listens to me impeccably). I am bringing a puppy into the picture in the next half year, and thoughts have already gone to how this will affect the other dogs, how the schedule will be, where the dogs will sleep, where everyone will eat, and how the training schedules will go. I don't beat my animals - the older dog has little to no training because he is not healthy, the other two dogs are training for competition and they are largely clicker trained. I could leave all my dogs loose in a yard and loose in the house and hope nothing went wrong - but the fact is, my head would be in the sand. I wouldn't want any animal injured because I refused to admit the potential.

Rats, please, please, please, please contact an Akita rescue and get in touch with one of the behaviorists that they use.  I have shared my home with an Akita before, so has Gina- you're absolutely correct that these dogs do not act or interpret life like other dogs do.  A large number of people do NOT understand that.

I'm not giving you advice, I'm actually pleading with you.  You gave Ogre a shot at a better life-your heart is in the right place.  I know the personality you are dealing with, the temperment issues, the prey drive and the intelligence. 

You have too many other stressors at home to try and deal with this situation on your own.  If you want help, Akita resources are your best bet. 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Rats, please, please, please, please contact an Akita rescue and get in touch with one of the behaviorists that they use.  I have shared my home with an Akita before, so has Gina- you're absolutely correct that these dogs do not act or interpret life like other dogs do.  A large number of people do NOT understand that.

I'm not giving you advice, I'm actually pleading with you.  You gave Ogre a shot at a better life-your heart is in the right place.  I know the personality you are dealing with, the temperment issues, the prey drive and the intelligence. 

You have too many other stressors at home to try and deal with this situation on your own.  If you want help, Akita resources are your best bet. 

Another really good option would be to find a ood reputable akita breeder (if a good rescue isn't available) to talk to!    Good advice, xerxes.

ORIGINAL: dobedvm
One is a mixed breed dog who is already over 8 months, didn't you say? ... What health reasons are left for him?

I'm not sure how to do this, but the following information comes from this site:
[linkhttp://k91training.tripod.com/id24.html]http://k91training.tripod.com/id24.html[/link]

[font="times new roman"][size="4"]Don#%92t neuter a male large breed dog before 1 year of age.  I bet your vet never told you that one.  Male dogs can be up to 20% larger than their female counterparts and therefore need that extra testosterone for the proper muscle development to support that extra large skeleton.  Don#%92t do this surgery until they finish developing physically.  Trust me, I have worked with hundreds of large working dogs and I can tell you if a dog is neutered from across the room without looking between the legs.  Large breeds that are neutered young develop noticeably differently.  They will have a much less muscular body.  The ideal time to neuter is between 12 months and 16 months of age for males if it must be done

[/size][/font]As a GSD owner, I'm very familiar with the idea of keeping large breed males intact for AT LEAST a year. Most good breeders/owners will tell you to wait 2 years or even more if possible. It's a hip dysplasia issue. 

They are NEVER left loose with each other, EVER

Ogre and Culley aren't left loose with each other either.

dobedvm, I see where you're coming from now. My dogs are NOT left aloen together. Ever. When I say that Ogre and Culley must be seperated, I mean that they can't be together even when supervised. I do not deny the risk for potential dog aggression in ANY breed or any dog. When they are not under my direct supervision, they are crated. I have crates for all of my dogs, and I use them.
 

Rat - My only piece to add here is:  I think people are picking up on the fact that you seem overwhelmed, and you don't have the resources to get the help you really need.  I agree that you should try everything you can, but keep in mind that the utmost concern should always be the welfare of your animals, not your own personal sense that you can do this.  You should try hard to maintain perspective and recognize when you cannot do it.

 
I find this post to be very condescending. I am NOT overwhelmed- I have dealt with far worse than what's going on right now. I'm not even really freaking out right now, now that they're seperated and Ogre can't get to the livestock. Everyone here seems to have decided FOR me that I am overwhelmed- I'm not, or I wouldn't be doing this.  I did rat rescue for several years, and I have seen people in over their heads...and I have seen enough of it to know that I am not.  I am mature enough to steck back and recognize my limitations, and I know that there is still a potential for me to fix this. Once I have run through all of my options, I will THEN consider rehoming Culley...for the millionth time.
 
Cita, I appreciate your post, and I agree with you completely- the long post I made earlier, I thought, illustrated my realization that Ogre has been treated very unfairly throughout all of this. It took me longer than it should have to recognize the problem- but I have now. He spent the day today INSIDE, with me, uncrated. He's in a pretty darn good mood right now- he actually came over to me for some attention, for the first time in weeks. I'm pretty sure that just the simple act of letting him stay primarily inside, uncrated, again will amke an ENORMOUS difference...we'll just have to see. I fully aknowledged that I majorly screwed up in this situation. I am looking to take some step backwards and see if I can undo the damage.
 
Xerxes, I appreicate your aknowledgement that I am not crazy in my portrayal of Ogre's thought processes. The fact that I am not the only one who realizes that Akitas do not think like other dogs means alot.
 
I will take your suggestion to get in touch with an Akita rescue- there is one that I know of based in Georgia and I'll send them an e-mail. I never thought of finding out what behaviorists they use- if I can find a behaviorist with Akita experience, I'll contact them in a heartbeat.

I will take your suggestion to get in touch with an Akita rescue- there is one that I know of based in Georgia and I'll send them an e-mail. I never thought of finding out what behaviorists they use- if I can find a behaviorist with Akita experience, I'll contact them in a heartbeat

Thank you.  If you'd like to keep me updated via PM, I'd be happy.  And if there's anything I can do let me know.

ORIGINAL: FourIsCompany

ORIGINAL: dobedvm
One is a mixed breed dog who is already over 8 months, didn't you say? ... What health reasons are left for him?

I'm not sure how to do this, but the following information comes from this site:
[linkhttp://k91training.tripod.com/id24.html]http://k91training.tripod.com/id24.html[/link]

[font="times new roman"][size="4"]Don't neuter a male large breed dog before 1 year of age.  I bet your vet never told you that one.  Male dogs can be up to 20% larger than their female counterparts and therefore need that extra testosterone for the proper muscle development to support that extra large skeleton.  Don't do this surgery until they finish developing physically.  Trust me, I have worked with hundreds of large working dogs and I can tell you if a dog is neutered from across the room without looking between the legs.  Large breeds that are neutered young develop noticeably differently.  They will have a much less muscular body.  The ideal time to neuter is between 12 months and 16 months of age for males if it must be done

[/size]As a GSD owner, I'm very familiar with the idea of keeping large breed males intact for AT LEAST a year. Most good breeders/owners will tell you to wait 2 years or even more if possible. It's a hip dysplasia issue. 

They are NEVER left loose with each other, EVER

Ogre and Culley aren't left loose with each other either.

I'm actually a vet and I've read all the studies, first hand, not posted by someone else on a website and quoted, or misquoted. It has nothing to do with hip dysplasia.   

Ratsicles,
I think we can all agree you're in a difficult spot.  And I can sympathize with you.  And I certainly won't tell you to rehome Culley right now, before everything has been tried, but you've said you really want to have children.  And if you have children sometime in the next 12 years, having 2 dogs that want to kill each other is a HUGE liablity.  I know lots of people who have dogs that they have to keep 2 doors between them at all times (common in the basenji world), but I don't think any of them have young children.  Also, the longer you have Culley, the harder it will be to rehome him and the longer Ogre behaves like this, the harder it will be to get him back to the old Ogre you knew.  I wanted to bring this up since I haven't seen it addressed and it is something you need to consider.  Just my free opinion and probably worth what you paid for it.[]
 
As far as repairing your relationship with Ogre (and I do believe dogs, at least basenjis, can be offended), Bones Would Rain from the Sky is a wonderful book.

Ratsicles,
I think we can all agree you're in a difficult spot. And I can sympathize with you. And I certainly won't tell you to rehome Culley right now, before everything has been tried, but you've said you really want to have children. And if you have children sometime in the next 12 years, having 2 dogs that want to kill each other is a HUGE liablity. I know lots of people who have dogs that they have to keep 2 doors between them at all times (common in the basenji world), but I don't think any of them have young children. Also, the longer you have Culley, the harder it will be to rehome him and the longer Ogre behaves like this, the harder it will be to get him back to the old Ogre you knew. I wanted to bring this up since I haven't seen it addressed and it is something you need to consider. Just my free opinion and probably worth what you paid for it.

You're absolutely right and your point is well taken. I do want kids, but I'm young and have plenty of time- DH and I have decided to wait until all problem dogs are out of the picture. We have the dogs we want and don't intend to get any more until most of our current dogs are old and dead and gone. Due to my health issues, it's unlikely that pregancy will even be an issue, but we're taking the necessary precautions nevertheless.

As far as repairing your relationship with Ogre (and I do believe dogs, at least basenjis, can be offended), Bones Would Rain from the Sky is a wonderful book.


I agree...that is an incredible book. I've read it several times now. Perhaps I'm due to read it again. []

ORIGINAL: dobedvm
I'm actually a vet and I've read all the studies, first hand, not posted by someone else on a website and quoted, or misquoted. It has nothing to do with hip dysplasia.   

I didn't misquote anything. That's exactly as it was printed.

And I have heard from vets that disagree with you. That's fine. People disagree. But I'll be on the safe side and wait till Jaia is a year old before neutering on the advice of my own personal vet, and by signed agreement with my breeder, whom I have grown to trust.

My point is that there IS a medical reason to delay neutering in large breed male dogs. You may not agree with it, but it explains why someone (like myself or Rat) might choose to wait.