PTS - for or against?

DPU

To the man from the south (yes, demoted again), you are yo yoing.  From the last post you agreed with my defiition of resources and now with your latest post, you changed.

Corvus, by blunting stating you are not interesting in fostering, it is my turn to look away.  I think as you get older and more mature, the bluntness will be softened.  See ya when you get older.

Actually, I agree with you and Corvus and I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. And I am not demoted, per se. Actually, you do not define what I am. And the validity of what I post is not determined as suitable for the forum or a thread by your judgement. I do agree that some subjects should be approached more carefully. As for bluntness softened with maturity, I don't see that happening. You are about 7 years older than me and yet you tell me I'm demoted and you don't care to consider Corvus' honesty. In fact, your post is quite blunt. So, true, she doesn't have the same desire as you and that's just a diference of personality. The "demotion" is so that you can get away with calling us immature without mentioning names, is if that softens the name-calling. Isn't that just so clever?

IMO, maturity includes the ability to understand various viewpoints, even if I don't agree in entirety.

"I don't want to explore my feelings as to why, but it bewilders me when people not involved, not interested, have the resources, don't care about the shelter dog, and then they say thank you to those of us that do help.  When I stand in front of the big box store with a dog at my side, a sign, and a tin cup, I can spot those that will help and those that will not.  For those that don't, they simply look in another direction.  I wish those that thank us but refuse to help would just look away. "

We live in a world of shadows and light, the light is more inviting, warm and safe. But the shadows are dark, cold and dangerous. Avoiding or not recognizing the shadows of life is easier than meeting it head on. Not everyone is wired the same way,  my gosh if we were we would have no problems anywhere in the world, but to think that a kind simple thank you is wrong? Now that is harsh. How can you know what they are like? Maybe their resources go to some other needy area, dogs as much as I love them, are not the only ones that need help. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the thank you they give you is their way of saying "thanks for helping in an area of need I could not?"

As for PTS, I am for it if the situation warrants it. I have a territorial/vet aggressive dog, he is a year old and not once have I thought of turning him over to someone else to take care of. There is nothing to take care of, he is mine, I am his, and we are together for as long as time allows us. Some days are good, some are bad, but I am in this for the long haul. But because I am, does not mean that everyone is capable of this kind of commitment.

As much as we try, cry and scream, they all cannot be saved.

 think when it comes to euthanising, I can only trust those that have taken responsibility for the animal, those that love it. But I know sometimes people don't think of euthanasia as an option, or maybe they don't want to say it because they're afraid people will jump down their throats. When I bring up that option in this forum, it is to reassure folks that anything they choose will be right in my books and that we will all support them no matter what.

I think many people do think of euthanasia as an option. I work at a vet, and get many calls and inquiries about it. Many people are quite willing to put down their pet without even trying to help them.  A teller at the bank that I go to is also a Office Mgr at a vet clinic...and said " I hate people...I hate that they just come in and do away with their pet as though they are not a living creature!"  Because of her saying that..I don't want to change my job to another vet even though that was my first intention...to get a job closer to my home after gaining experience in this field.   You see..the vet I work for won't put a pet down for no reason.   She won't accecpt their money just to get rid of their pet.  If she sees that they are treatable..she will treat them if they pay. If they don't want to pay..they can go someplace else. OR she will have them surrender their pet and she will treat him and find him a home.  We have done that several times since I have worked there.  I don't want to go someplace else to work where the vet will handle these things any different.

Of course the conversation differs when talking an individual pet and shelters and unwanted pets.  

No we can't save them all.  For sure we need to work on helping to prevent all the unwanted pets  though.

Dog_ma

My husband's cousin and her husband and both in service careers. She is a school teacher, he is a psychiatric nurse.  They do not wish to have any children.  For them, going to work, giving 110% and then returning home (to their dogs!) keeps them going.  Does the cousin love children any less because she chooses not to have any in her house?  Nope.

 I have a child, but there is no way I could make a career out of helping kids.  I'm thankful there are people who do. 

So why is it any different for trainers and behaviorists?  Maybe they'd like to go home an recharge, rather than being "on" at all times?  Maybe whatever they do with their current dogs would be negatively impacted by fostering?  Who knows?  And who I am to judge? 

There are many ways to help dogs and kids.  We don't all need to do the exact same things.

 

 Good post Dog_ma

 

 It is great to foster. I would love to do more along these lines but I have to be conservative with my time. I have a husband, two kids and two dogs and a job, all of which require effort and time to function well. I cannot take in dogs that have severe issues because at this time in my life it is not fair to my family to do so.

 Some time in the future, God willing I will be able to do more. 

  Just because people do not donate their time, or their money to help dogs, just because they do not foster, does not mean they are un-caring people. The person who say's thank you for taking time out to help dogs may be someone who spends their time at the local homeless shelter helping people, or maybe they help troubled kids... there are many "jobs" like this that need doing, we cannot do all of them so each of us must do what we can in the field that we believe is most suited to us. I like cats, and horses and other animals besides dogs but I do not assist in this area, I also care greatly about people and kids but rarely have chances to assist in this field. For me it is dogs, because I am good with dogs, I love dogs and I can fit this into my life at this time.
 

Just a few minutes ago, I got onto dog.com to search for information about human aggression and see what could be done, if anything, in extreme cases.  This thread was listed on the search page even before I did the search.  I clicked on it, and its just what I was looking for.  A few weeks ago, my mentor took in 7 dogs from another breeder.  She was getting divorced and was being forced to rehome her dogs.  So, we told her we would take them and train them before adopting them out.  We had a feeling they may not be well socialized and we asked her to let us have the severely dog aggressive one.  She wanted to put her down, but we wanted to try to help her first before that decision was made.  It turns out shes a sweet dog and I haven't seen any severe aggression on her part at all.  Another male around 1.5 years old was terrified.  He would not go into the dog house and only wanted to stay in his crate.  He came out and crammed himself between the wall and the dog house.  So, I turned it around and he started going in there.  But, I could not touch him.  He was so scared that he would just shake if you got very close.  I managed to finally pet him after hours of work but he did not like it at all.  It was if I was punishing him.  I worked with him every day just trying to get him on a leash and to touch him.  He came around a tiny bit, but it was torture for him.  Then he started attacking the water hose.  We have kennels set up and he would act like he wanted to kill the water.  I couldn't get too close because he might bite me in his attempts.  But, as long as the water wasn't going, I could go in and feed him and try to pet him some.  Gradually, he let me pet him more, and he didn't try to run away the whole time.  I thought he was coming around.  Every day, I worked with him trying to get him to at least be comfortable.  He got better, but then got worse.  He started acting like he wanted to attack me instead of the hose.  Today, I didn't even have the hose near him and I went in his kennel to work with him and try to move him so I wouldn't stress him out with the water.  As soon as I opened the door, he started jumping and biting my pants very aggressively.  If I hadn't had baggy pants on, he would have bitten me for sure and he did bite my hand, but I move it fast enough to not get hurt.  I didn't even try to pet him, I just opened the door.  I told my mentor and he decided that we might have to PTS.  I hate that because it isn't his fault, but at the same time, its not fair to him to keep him so stressed.  I can't take him into public to work with him because he could bite, I can't go in to work with him because he will bite me, I can't get a leash on him well or else he stresses so bad, if I try to pet him, he acts like its torture.  I feel so bad for the guy because its his previous owners fault for not socializing him.  When he gets worked up, he tries to bite anything in sight.  He doesn't know any other way and I think his owner knew this but didn't tell us because hes broken two of his canines off.  As horrible as I feel for not being able to fix this dog, who I really still love even though I just met him a few weeks ago, I feel its more humane to not put him through this torture.  Sure, we could try to send him to Cesar Milan or someone like that, but change for him is torture.  If you had seen the fear in this dogs face, you would understand.  Hes constantly stressed, doesn't like to eat with people around, and is so scared!  I hate to see him like this!  I cry when I think about having to put him to sleep, but it makes me even more sad to see him being tortured by the very things that the other dogs love, like petting, food, playing with water, and attention.  To him, those are punishment.

ColleenC

If you had seen the fear in this dogs face, you would understand.  Hes constantly stressed, doesn't like to eat with people around, and is so scared!  I hate to see him like this!  I cry when I think about having to put him to sleep, but it makes me even more sad to see him being tortured by the very things that the other dogs love, like petting, food, playing with water, and attention.  To him, those are punishment.

And you wrote more eloquently than I did. And I understand your pain, too, just as I understand those who feel that PTS should never be an option. Even I, with clicker in hand, might agree with your mentor's suggestion. That was the point of my original question. At what point is enough enough? It has proven to be subjective and personal, with many people, myself included. Some may be vehemently opposed to PTS for such a case and the mention of it sets them off. But, in today's litigious society, the liability of perhaps a shelter dictates that they PTS any dog showing aggression. As in, sure, a certain dog only attacked one other dog and that could be managed by the right owner but how can they know that the dog in question won't twist off on somone else or another dog? PTS is not easy and I know so from personal experience. But, sometimes, it is the humane thing to do. Another person stated brilliantly that when an animal can no longer enjoy some of the simple pleasures of life, perhaps it is time. But it is a tough call, either way.

I'm all for trying to rehab dogs.  I want to make every effort possible as does my mentor.  That is why we agreed to take the DA dog and work with her before that decision to PTS was made.  She has come along well and hasn't shown any aggression.  But, I work with her every day to try to help.  I want to give every dog a chance.  My mentor saw that I was almost crying when he told me, and said "we can't fix all of the worlds problems and we knew when we got these dogs that they might be 'broken.'"  We did what we could and gave him the chance to come around and learn to live peacefully.  If I had been trying to pick him up, forcing petting upon him, or taking his food, I would completely understand the biting, but I just opened the door and he started biting.  He bit my pants at least 5 times.  I'm glad I had baggy pants on or else I know he would have bitten my leg and if he actually got blood and skin, I don't know what he would have done.  I wish I could fix every dog, which is why I'm a trainer, but I have to realize that I can't.  Sometimes the damage has gone too far and it becomes inhumane for the dog and dangerous for people.  I wish I could lock his previous owner up and give her no socialization for a year and a half.  Sure, our dogs are in a kennel set up, but we work very hard to keep them socialized and make sure they get proper care.  We spend lots and lots of time making sure we don't have aggressive dogs because thats not how the breed is meant to be.  We want our dogs to be happy and well adjusted no matter where they are so they all go to obedience classes and sometimes go to work with my mentor.  For this lady to keep this little dog isolated and never get him out, she has basically killed him.  I hate her for that.  I want to be able to help him so bad, but like I said, his life has become a punishment to him.
 

I tend to go with the "not enjoying life" idea myself, too, Ron2. It IS a tough call and I am still haunted by making that call for my beloved hound a few years ago. At least she was physically shutting down--I don't know how I'd make that kind of call with a dog who was mentally or emotionally shutting down. 

Let's hope I never have to.

nfowler

beloved hound a few years ago. At least she was physically shutting down

As it was for me with my old cat, Misty. She used to be in the Rainbow Bridge Welcoming Committee pic but has since disappeared. Anyway, she was 17 with drastic kidney failure. Since I'm not an accountant or something else that makes better money, I had to choose between PTS and a treatment that was much more expensive. And that treatment would have made her feel sort of okay for a little while, delaying the inevitable. I would have been willing to try the treatment but I knew that it would be for my reasons of wanting to keep her around a little while longer. Such selfishness on my part would only cause her more and more suffering and a re-play of that days events. So, I made the decision to PTS based on my morals and ethics. I will not allow a pet of mine to suffer needlessly, least of all, by my own hand. It was one of the hardest times in my life and is the second time in my adult life when I cried. The first time was when my first wife passed away.

 And if I had a dog that I thought needed PTS for mental issues, etc., I will be the one that takes him there and I will be there until after the last breath. My responsibility. In sailing terms, I am the one who goes down with the ship. And I will add the guilt, remorse, sadness, to my list of sins and scars.

I can't imagine that there would be "sins" attached with that call, Ron. I can't. I think it's just that it's so final. I remember that my hound didn't just "go to sleep" like the vet said she would. She kept on breathing and I cried and cried and said, "Maybe this is a mistake!" But, of course, by that time, it was too late to go back.

I said the same thing when my Mom quickly traveled toward her own passing. It's been 3.5 years and I still can't quite grasp the reality and finality of her passing.

Suffering is suffering--whether it is physical or mental. I think it's human nature, though, to ask what else might have been done and was the call that was made the call to have been made when it was made.

I am sure certain dogs could be helped with the proper medication when it comes to mental issues in conjunction with desensitizing exercise.

snownose

I am sure certain dogs could be helped with the proper medication when it comes to mental issues in conjunction with desensitizing exercise.

And I agree with that, too, especially if resources (as in money) are available. Even though dogs are not human it is not impossible for me to imagine that some might need some medication. I've seen some humans who have needed it. I once had a friend who was bipolar and medication was a constant factor in her life, both good and bad.

nfowler

I can't imagine that there would be "sins" attached with that call,

The sin of choosing to be able to pay for bills like electric and water and gas and insurance and some food on the table over squeezing a few more days to keep a loved pet with me. Each choice has consequences. According to some, I am not doing enough or am not worthy to comment because I haven't spent every last penny on a group of dogs. I try to atone for my sins by donating what money I can to the local shelter, as well as donations of sheets, towels, and food. Whenever I go to the shelter, it breaks my heart. This shelter has a kill schedule. And I think I've seen the same dog there twice. A white Siberian Husky mix female. She was there a few years ago and I've seen her there again, recently. Though it might be different dogs. I don't have a lot of money and most times, I'm doing well to get bills paid. And I have to work away from home 8 to 12 hours a day to make that money, usually in the blistering heat or freezing cold. Too many animals and not enough dinero.

ron2

The sin of choosing to be able to pay for bills like electric and water and gas and insurance and some food on the table over squeezing a few more days to keep a loved pet with me. Each choice has consequences. According to some, I am not doing enough or am not worthy to comment because I haven't spent every last penny on a group of dogs.

Ahh, not from me, my friend. Not from me. And I have can pretty much say it's a safe bet I've spent a LOT of money on my female so that she can live a (nearly) fully functional life. Had she gone to many other homes, she wouldn't be as comfortable as she is now. And my male, of course, would have been PTS already. In both cases, not have kids of my own and having a pretty nice job have enabled me to make the choices I have. In any other circumstance--I wouldn't have been able to do that. You make some very good points.

So, know that I wouldn't judge you.

ron2

nfowler

beloved hound a few years ago. At least she was physically shutting down

As it was for me with my old cat, Misty. She used to be in the Rainbow Bridge Welcoming Committee pic but has since disappeared. Anyway, she was 17 with drastic kidney failure. Since I'm not an accountant or something else that makes better money, I had to choose between PTS and a treatment that was much more expensive. And that treatment would have made her feel sort of okay for a little while, delaying the inevitable. I would have been willing to try the treatment but I knew that it would be for my reasons of wanting to keep her around a little while longer. Such selfishness on my part would only cause her more and more suffering and a re-play of that days events. So, I made the decision to PTS based on my morals and ethics. I will not allow a pet of mine to suffer needlessly, least of all, by my own hand....

If I was in your life during this time, I would give comfort and attempt to provide relief, even though it may be a futile effort.  This is a oneness time in life but is really unique to every individual.  That is we all share the same situation but have different ways of coping. 

It would be my position not to tell you the when or even suggest taking over the care.  I do hope that during this solemn time, there was not an internet guy, oh lets give him a ficticious name-Ronald, that was out there and just had to express his opinion while waving the American flag and subliminally exercising his free speech right, and telling you this is when it should be done.