PTS - for or against?

ron2

 I have to agree with nfowler. I would count you as worthy to comment and see no sin in your choice. Each choice like this that we make is different and each of us must make it at some time or another. I am sad that you feel judged by some because of your choice.

 When younger and married with a small child under the age of one, I was once faced with the choice of providing a home for my son or keeping my dog and my son but being homeless.Lost jobs and bad luck had us in a situation where we could not afford even the cheapest apartment and the only thing available was a hotel room. My wonderful dog was 10 years old at the time and very attached to me. If left for a day or more in a kennel he would not eat, would not play and would grow depressed at the meer sight of me packing a suitcase. I was devestated and torn between finding him a home and putting him to sleep. I chose putting him to sleep and many judged me as bad because of that choice having no idea that to me I was doing the thing that was hardest for me to do and what I thought was best for him. I still cry if I think about this time as it broke my heart and I swore to never have another dog until I was certain I lived in a home that I owned and that I would never be placed in that situation again...yet still they judged me as wrong.

 Search your own heart and do not be concerned about what others think, the very fact that it causes you pain is sufficient proof in my eyes that you did indeed do the right thing.

ron2

Actually, I agree with you and Corvus and I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. And I am not demoted, per se. Actually, you do not define what I am. And the validity of what I post is not determined as suitable for the forum or a thread by your judgement. I do agree that some subjects should be approached more carefully. As for bluntness softened with maturity, I don't see that happening. You are about 7 years older than me and yet you tell me I'm demoted and you don't care to consider Corvus' honesty. In fact, your post is quite blunt. So, true, she doesn't have the same desire as you and that's just a diference of personality. The "demotion" is so that you can get away with calling us immature without mentioning names, is if that softens the name-calling. Isn't that just so clever?

IMO, maturity includes the ability to understand various viewpoints, even if I don't agree in entirety.

IMo, maturity increases with experiences, exposure to variety, and time but it stops at death.

Bluntness will soften with maturity and boldness will surface and you become more clever.

Where did you get the 7 year age difference?

I am well aware that many people choose euthanasia when there is still plenty of hope for their pet, and I also know many people let their pets suffer for months or years to not choose euthanasia. But who am I to judge? Who am I to tell them they have to spend more money? Who am I to tell them they haven't tried hard enough or suffered enough or their human weaknesses are repulsive? There are a lot of things in life that I don't care about that I should. There are a lot of causes I care about, but don't donate too. There are times I choose the easy way because I can't bear anything else. Selecting a pet to be part of my family is one of those times. I consider myself to be doing my bit by picking a puppy from a responsible breeder and bringing it up kindly and giving it all the care and love it could ever want. Who really has the right to tell me I'm morally reprehensible in some way because I didn't rescue a mutt with a mindfield of potential problems that may negatively impact on my current family? Do I love dogs less because I don't want other people's castoffs? And I challenge anyone here to say I'm a bad owner or don't care enough about my dog if I don't put her through chemo should she get cancer in her later years, or if I don't spend thousands of dollars to get her cataracts removed so she can see clearly again. I wouldn't like to be judged on those terms, so I refuse to judge others on those terms.

As it happens, I am no longer a university student. Last year, I agonised for months over my future career. I wanted to work in zoos and help the captive animals with environmental enrichment. I wanted to work with dogs and help the abandoned pups that needed me. I wanted to work in conservation and help the environment, which has nurtured me and made me who I am. I started on all three paths at one stage or other, but aborted two and eventually settled on conservation. I chose based on what I felt most passionate about. As a result, I now have an unstable lifestyle and will increasingly be away from home many days at a time. But I made my choice and I know it was the right one. Should I look away from you, DPU, because you have not chosen to devote your life to environmental conservation? Should I judge you if you are not aware of the environmental impact of your lifestyle? Should I consider my cause to be somehow superior to yours because it is mine?

Of course not. I appreciate what you do because it's something I wanted to, but my passions led me in a different direction. You have no idea how nice it is to know that at least that cause I let fall by the wayside has lots of devoted warriors. My cause meets powerful opposition everyday. My cause exposes me to what I consider barbarism and horrific destruction. Sometimes I hate our clients intensely for not caring. A lot of people in my cause think I've sold out and am working for the enemy. At the end of the day, I'm awfully glad to come home and stroke the ears of animals that are my family and concern myself with their happiness and mine. God forgive me my selfishness.

 I'm a blunt person. Death is a part of life and people think I'm weird for seeing beauty in it, but I do. People think I'm horrible for taking it in my stride and I've had them look away from me when I've knowingly involved myself with an animal destined for the abbatoirs. I don't think death is something to shy away from. You have to be able to see clearly when you're considering the life of another being, whether it be a snail found in the garden, a cow you wish to eat, or a dog you have taken into your family. Bluntness does wonders for clarity, and I prize clarity above mild offense. Knowing now that DPU is sensitive about the concept of euthanasia, I will endeavour to remember that and be sensitive myself. Bluntness and clarity are all well and good, but I sometimes speak the most hideous lies and stay uncharacteristically quiet for my friends. It's very hard over the internet to tell when someone is truly hurt, a little irritated, or slightly phased.
 

dgriego

 Each choice like this that we make is different and each of us must make it at some time or another.

I can't imagine NOT wanting to turn back time, change the paths and decisions, etc. It seems quite natural to do so, and to be introspective and reflective of our choices.

It is daunting to represent the best life for my pet. Daunting. I have never given birth but I can only imagine how fiercely protective I'd be if I had, given how I am with my animals. For what it's worth, I have faced grief (losing a mother when I was relatively young has been the toughest), and I have faced regrets, too, since knowing "when" isn't the route death takes. The day I took my hound is was not the day I thought I'd lose her and to this day I wonder if I should have brought her home. But she was a big dog (maybe even heavier than Marvin!) and I worried about her having an emergency at home and my being unable to get her into the car again.

And she was physically failing there at the vet's office, growing weaker by the minute. It was very surreal and very difficult and I dread even having to face that again, but here I am with two dogs now.

I do think that physical failure is easier to make a decision about than what dgregio (forgive the misspell; you know how this new forum is and I can't look your name up) had to go through. Finding a GREAT petsitter is hard enough--trying to find a forever home for a glued-to-you kind of dog is nearly impossible. I know because I have that dog now and I know that if anything happened to me, nobody would take him--except perhaps his old foster mom.

Hurrah for fosters--theirs is not to wonder if but to do their very best and leave those decisons up to others. For the rest of us--it's to do whatever is in our power (not the word "power" here) to protect and assist our pets--from beginning to end.

And now I think I'm done with this thread. Goodnight.

I am constantly being drawn to this thread, I cannot explain it but it makes me mad and sad at the same time.

I usually stay out of things like this, I have a healthy respect for other opinions. I find it extremely arrogant that some people expect others to only see their side of the coin so to speak and only their side. Refusing to see another's point of view is just that, refusal.

This is my opinion for what it is worth, which I am going to guess is zilch.

To the man of the north, you accuse other's of baiting, sorry, your just as good at baiting and you do it alot. Just because people do not conform to your way of thinking does not give you the right to demote or berate. People to you are only worthy if they do just as much as you do, in your field of calling, or agree with you, that does not make everyone else worthless, beneath others, immature or wrong.

Ron2, you have apoligized enough, while your original comment may have been out of grace, you owned up to it, but that does not diminish the fact that you still had the right to say it.

Corvus, I don't care how old you are, your honesty in how you feel was right. Just because someone has a higher number of years, does not mean they can't be inmature.

Now, I am facing the one year anniversay of putting my beloved dog Babe to sleep. I have become moody, depressed and I am not looking foreward to the day. I just managed to get through the 2 year anniversay of my 17 yr old cats death. Not a day goes by that I don't ask myself if I did the right thing by both. While both my pets died of old age related illness, and I know they were better off, does not deminish the fact that I think maybe I could have done more. Thankfully, the vet was blunt, nothing I did would make either lives better or prolong them.

Frankly, unless someone has actually stood at a cross road and had to decide on paying the bills or feeding the family to save an animal, saying they would is nothing but lip service. It would be nice if everyone did, would be great if it was possible to do so, but the fact is it is not always feasible, life can be cruel.

Many on this board would like nothing better than to fix, save and have every dog in a loving home. I am one of those people. But I do not because I have limits on time, money and enviorment. So am I bad and unworthy because I do not? Nope, what I am is honest and in touch with reality. May not be a pretty picture but it is the truth.

Tru

Truley and Corvus both expressed it a lot better than I ever could.  I agree with both of you 100%. 

 Ron, you need not apologize any more.  You have made it very clear to anyone who is actually listening that you are sorry.  We all need to remember we all have a right to think the way we do and to speak our minds even on controversial topics. 

Which is how I feel.

I'm pretty much out of this thread, other than to read others comments. The personality clash crap is not productive and I'm really not that interested in oneupsmanship. As for having to make a harsh decision, been there, done that. Our mother had always instructed us in her wish to be DNR. Came the time on March 14, 1987 when we had to make that decision. And she passed on. So, I haven't had to do it for just a pet, but a family member, specifically my mother. So, the time to let a loved one go has been a harsh reality in my life more than once. Now, there's something to put in a pipe and smoke. Contrary to other opinions, I do not treat PTS lightly or as a commonplace remedy.

The interesting part of this thread is that there can be different criteria, depending on the person or municipality involved, and a myriad of factors.

I think it's really crucial that people have a good grasp of exactly what their limits are and that they don't allow others to "guilt" them into doing things that perhaps they'd be better off not doing.  I don't foster. Perhaps some day I will, but right now I don't think I have the time or space for it and there are some days when I barely manage to get the one dog I have out for a walk. I do support my local shelter - with money, food, towels etc. There was a TV program awhile back about a family with 14 children - all adopted and all "special needs" - everything from mild to severe mental and physical disorders. They are truly wonderful people but I know that I couldn't do that. I had my hands full with the two perfectly normal healthy ones I had - and they were 6 years apart. It's when people can't or won't accept their limitations that you wind up with news stores about people with 30 cats or dogs in an apartment, living in squalor.

Joyce

fuzzy_dogs_mom

I think it's really crucial that people have a good grasp of exactly what their limits are and that they don't allow others to "guilt" them into doing things that perhaps they'd be better off not doing...

No one is guilting anyone here.  My position has always been that those involved in the dog's situation should have a say or comment on the fate of the dog.  Others should be silent, supportive, and respectful.  I did not start this thread, it was rapidly started as an emotional response and the idea that PTS can be intellectually debated.  As I said in my first post, for me the subject is not debatable.  It is too serious of a subject.  As we saw, story after story, it is an individual situation and the individual will make the decision when the time is right. 

Not to change the subject.... although maybe I should    But DPU...do you have the picture in your Avatar in a larger form so we can see it better?  Would love to!

I see my avatar quite clear.  I think the forum software guys are working on enlarging the avatar picture.  Here are large sizes. 

 Aside from the obvious health reasons, I think that there are legitimate behavioral reasons to have a dog PTS.  My personal limit would be if one of my dogs started showing actual human aggression.  I'm sure some will think less of me for that opinion, but that is just the way it is. 

Truley

To the man of the north, you accuse other's of baiting, sorry, your just as good at baiting and you do it alot. Just because people do not conform to your way of thinking does not give you the right to demote or berate. People to you are only worthy if they do just as much as you do, in your ield of calling, or agree with you, that does not make everyone else worthless, beneath others, immature or wrong.

Funny, Ron2 has in past post had done the same thing many times, always ending with "and I dare to bring this up".  I was silent on those many posts but when he referenced PTS to my dog (and I admit indirectly), I felt I needed to respond and respond in a strong way.  I post 3 guesses as to why I think Ron2 was doing this and you focus on only one...baiting and then you accuse me of baiting.  For the record my snyde comments were meant to be light.  I don't want people to conform to my way of thinking, that would asking for too much.  I do want to contrast my views and I also want to explore exactly what is behind the opposing views.  Was it derived from reading a book, one-two-three experiences, or just accepting another opinions?  I make the statement that I feel people not involved with rescuing should not comment on when a shelter dog is PTS.  Corvus says, I am not interested in rescuing and I at this point I just don't know about Ron2's, therefore I say they should be silent on the matter.  That is my opinion.  Interpret it anyway you want, it is just my opinion but the difference is, I act and get involved because of my opinion.

Hold on, when was this specifically about shelter dogs? And where is the difference between a shelter dog and a dog you've taken in for yourself. Someone has to take responsibility of it at some point, and once that's done, we're all in the same boat, aren't we? Once a dog has someone making decisions for it, isn't it the same issue regardless of where the dog is? I'm confused.

To me, choosing death for an animal (or a plant, for that matter) is the ultimate equaliser. It should bring you all down to the one place, the most basic level where you can say, this life is no more or less important than mine. This gives us something to wrestle with when we want to eat something, and gives us something to cling to when we want that life to continue. But when the only issue is happiness, surely that's when you say "What would I want?" and put yourself in the animal's shoes. I don't have to be involved with shelters to do that. I only have to know the animal in question. It's the same process no matter what, whether it's a behavioural or medical or emotional problem. I don't really understand why you think someone not involved in shelter work doesn't hold a valid opinion on euthanasia. We all know what a happy dog and what a miserable dog looks like (I hope). Whether it's our own or a rescue/foster dog shouldn't make a difference. Am I missing something?

 

DPU

I was silent on those many posts but when he referenced PTS to my dog (and I admit indirectly),

I simply do not recall ever suggesting that you put your dog to sleep. Is that what all this grief is about?

 have I mentioned that dogs have been PTS for similar reasons, I don't recall exactly but I'll accept that I have. Have I said that some dogs may be beyond help and it would be more humane for them to pass on? Yes, I have. Have I done so indelicately? Yes. As for what you call baiting, I was acquiescing. Accepting that my comment was probably out of place for the thread it was in, so I should ask the question in its own thread.

 And my 1, 2, or 3 experiences do count for something. And I can express an opinion just like any one else here, even if I don't foster right now, or work for a rescue or shelter. I can express an opinion while having only 1 dog and 1 cat. And the decisions in my life that a loved one must be let go were based on the best medical advice and what the options were. So, no, they weren't waving a flag but they did have to bring that up.

What I can't do is call names or character-assassinate. It's against TOS. Even though some others, and I don't mean you, specifically, have done so and gotten away with it. If I have done something wrong, I am sure the mods will catch up with me.

And I accept that you will simply not accept that I have the right to comment because I am not involved the way you are and you are always entitled to your opinion. Members of my family and friends have sacrificed to secure our freedom of speech. If I had not been a 4-F (medical disqualification) I would have served, as well.

And believe it or not, I appreciate your honesty in expressing what is bothering you.

From the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave...