PTS - for or against?

PTS=Putting dogs to sleep?

For or against, in this country it can't really be avoided for a large number of dogs. I'd love to live in a candy cane house on Gumdrop Lane but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

But what kind of situation are we talking about here?

for a terminally ill dog, yes.



i wish they would extend this courtesy to humans as well.... but that's another off topic or NDR topic)

My bad. I guess I should have started it off.
 
Firstly, I jumped the gun in a discussion on another topic.
 
But, more to the point of this thread. There are some dogs that have "issues." Issues that require extensive management and some solid skills and tenacity on the part of the handler/owner. When trying to rehab a dog that has issues, I concede that there are some dogs that just don't care for a treat, not even a dripping piece of roast beef. So, I also concede that there are dogs beyond rehab, which of course is a direction contradiction of someone such as  a famous t.v. person who feels that no dog is beyond rehab. Because I don't think that massive or constant correction will help, either. And these issues may be due to factors such as massive constant abuse or neglect, an imbalance or malfunction due to a genetic mutation, which may arise out of either poor breeding or simple "craps" in Mother Nature's roll of the dice. And breed temperment may or may not enter into it. In Detroit, MI, seized fighting dogs are PTS. I'm not certain I would go that route right off of the bat. But, for some dogs, it is too late, even for a clicking fool like me.
 
And part of bringing this up was in dealing with dogs that pull on the leash. Inevitably, we get into a discussion of straw bosses. What if the dog won't do this or I've tried that, or it only works if I do this? And it's a means to point out what's wrong with this or that style. And so, the thought led me to think about where does it all end?
 
If a dog can't act well in public on a leash, regardless of whatever is done, should that dog be in public at all? Shouldn't that dog be in a highly managed situation? And what is the quality of the dog's life? And if the dog can only be handled on leash in a corrective collar and/or muzzle, what is the most humane thing for that dog? And what is most human for the 9 other dogs who are running out of time and room at a shelter but are just fine on leash?

This is a vast over-simplification but I have been involved both in the case of sick dogs, and mentally-ill dogs (often abused-mistreated and with physical problems beyond their control) and I have simply developed this mindset.
 
If a dog can not longer take joy in the simplicities of life -- eating, drinking, sleeping, walking or lying in its day -- and the dog experiences enough panic, fear, and deep emotional pain as a result of trying to get THRU that day, then I think it's usually a kindness to euthanize them and put an end to the torment just 'Living' has become.
 
Usually as part of this process I see dogs who literally can't even take refuge in sleep -- because nightmares are simply an extension of the torment the days have become.  And when sleep is habitually a torment and not a release and rest for the dog that's often a defining moment for me as to 'when'. 

I must be distracted today. Let me try and finish a thought.

For dogs that are beyond help or can only exist in tightly monitored circumstances, the humane thing, IMHO, is euthanasia. And I believed that before I bought a clicker. I believed that when I still used the scruff. And I still believe it. As to what constitutes a dog beyond saving, we may have to define that.

What if a dog has bitten a human once or even twice? Even if we reason out later that the dog was reacting naturally and it was the fault of the human? Would it also depend on the severity of the bite? Stitches required? Or just the bite, regardless of severity? Shadow bit me once and punctured the skin and, judging from my experiences of injury from other things in my life, I think he stress fractured the big knuckle of my right index finger. It took about four weeks or so for the knuckle to not hurt or ache. No report or doctor visit. I only called the vet to make sure that rabies wasn't a problem around here. And the incident was totally my fault. And I don't say that to save him, it's just a statement of fact. Basically, he was coming out of anasthesia and I was trying to remove a loose bandage on his paw while he was drinking water. So, he wasn't fully aware just, yet. Yes, I make stupid mistakes.

Should he be PTS?

He appeared to have bit my goddaughter but no one was in the room at the time to see if it was an actual bite or him playing and giving her an accidental toothing because she got scared, which scared him. BTW, he offed at my command, out if sight from another room. And then recalled when I said "here." Later recollections showed that she was playing with the cat with a feather boa and it may have dragged across his muzzle or he joined in the play and misjudged and got her hand.

Should he be PTS?

ETA:
The latter case was also my fault. Improper supervision. They had been alone together earlier in the day. But, at the same time, he showed inhibition and attentiveness. In the same breath, Mom and Dad could have reported it or taken her to the hospital which would have reported it and Shadow might have been seized and maybe, PTS. Texas now has a law that anyone who owns a dog that bites hard enough to require a hospital visit will be held criminally liable. It could have been a thread in the Rainbow Bridge.

a dog can not longer take joy in the simplicities of life -- eating, drinking, sleeping, walking or lying in its day -- and the dog experiences enough panic, fear, and deep emotional pain as a result of trying to get THRU that day, then I think it's usually a kindness to euthanize them and put an end to the torment just 'Living' has become.

 
That was eloquent. I wish I had thought of that.
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

I brought it up in another thread, possibly in error. Another person commented that they would like to debate that point. Here it is.

 
That member would be me.  And the comment I made was that Ron2#%92s opinion should be sent to Davy Jones Locker, the bottom of the ocean where there are no sounds and no one can hear it.  The opinion should be raised from the depths once in the situation and then its validity would be confirmed.  For me, there is no debate on this issue.  It is a personal matter and only those involved in the situation have the right to comment if asked by the caretaker. 
 
I don#%92t enter threads and offer my experience unless it is my home situation and it is no different for this thread. 
 
Yes, the thread Ron2 referenced talked about controlling dog while leashed and I have that problem.  Ron2 brought up the PTS for dogs with behavior issues and also equated this minor behavior thing with quality of life.  I have created threads about this particular dog and inevitably someone would suggest PTS.  The dog has SA…PTS.  The dog has social grace issues…PTS.  The dog is a hound and hard to place…PTS.  The dog is old…PTS….and so on. 
 
Don#%92t members know that the caretaker always has an awareness that PTS is an option.  Why does it have to be stated publicly and at the same time diminish its severity and emotional impact on the human.  It is said sometimes it is the kindness act we can give our best but at the same time it is the hardest.  
 
So Ron2, as I said I don#%92t enter a thread unless it is my home situation.  Presently, Marvin the foster is one experience and presently another is one of my residence dog with cancer that we have been treating for the past 4 months and science has offered all they can.  So what is your public opinion on this.  Should I have PTS when I found out about the cancer.  Should I have PTS when I learned of the treatment.  Should I have PTS when I learned the costs.  Should I have PTS when I ran out of vacation time to take the trip to the vet hospital downstate. 
 
Spiritdogs, a true lady when it comes to these matters, said in the illness thread “She needs your comfort and your permission to decide when it's time.”  My permission, I own the decision.  Ron2, your opinion should be silent until you are asked or in the situation.  Lets see if you learned anything from this post.
 

Well, I hate to say that I'm "for" euthanasia, because that simply sounds too morbid. But I'm definitely not against it, and I do think there is a place for it.
 
I don't think we have to delve into the reasons of medical issues, they are pretty self-explanatory I think.

Behaviourally, I think there are many situations where euthanization is the kindest, most humane method of easing an animal's pain. As Calliecritters mentioned, some dogs are just living, literally, a life of torment. Even with drugs, some dogs just cannot thrive in this world any longer. Some dogs are just beyond help, and in some cases where help might be a possibility, help would be so stressful itself, and the time it would take would be so vast, that the animal would still be suffering for a long time.
 
Then there are those animals who have very serious problems, but whose problems could be helped by the "right" people. The unfortunate problem is that there are not enough "right people" in this world that are able to help those animals. The number of people actually qualified to help these dogs (and by qualified I'm not even talking about credentials here, but simply people who CAN help in some way or another) is so low that it's just not realistically feasible to say "well somebody can solve this issue". Yes, somebody out there in the world might be qualified, but if that person is in across the country, in another country, or hundreds of miles away, unfortunately it's just not a plausible situation.
 
I'm a person who is very unsupportive of no-kill shelters (true no-kill shelters, not the ones that move dogs around so that they actually are euthanized at some point). I understand the compassion behind it, I do, but I can't in good faith support the keeping of animals for years, sometimes their entire lives, in a 6 x 6 prison cell, with perhaps one, maybe two toys, with a walk and attention twice per day, and very often no contact with other dogs (some shelters do, but the majority don't seem to do a lot of regular interactions between dogs). Dogs have gone basically clinically insane living in these quarters, and simply living in these quarters for years on end, has ruined any chance for that animal to lead a normal life, even if it went into the shelter being a normal dog.
 
If you look at the human equivalent to these shelters - prisons. Suicide rates are higher in prisons than the rest of the population as a whole. In fact, suicide is the leading cause of death in prisons. Now, of course this is a HUGELY complex issue that is not solely attributed to being in prison, but there is a portion of the problem attributed to life in a prison. And to think that prisoners often have a LOT more freedom than shelter dogs do within the environment.
 
As to what constitutes a dog being eligible for euthanasia, it's so individual I'm not sure we can really ever properly define it. What is a reason for me is not necessarily a reason for somebody else. The reason somebody else would do it, may be a reason I would never even consider doing it for. I may have been able to deal with the problem they are, but that doesn't mean they can, or that they should have to. And I don't think it's anybody's place to criticize somebody else for trying to do the right thing, even if you don't feel they are doing the right thing. It's just impossible to sometimes put yourself into another's shoes to know what they are feeling. I have the privelege (or unfortunate reality, depending on how you view it) to understand the range of emotions that people go through when dealing with problem dogs. Because I've been there. I AM there, and live with such dogs. And it's hard, it is really, really hard. Living with a problem dog really does change your entire life. So it's really not ever for me to judge when somebody decides they can't live that kind of life.
 
I think it would be interesting to hear of people sharing their bite stories, if they have bite stories. I've been bitten purposely three times in my life (two grooming separate dogs, another by a very anxious GSD that was at the boarding kennel I worked at - all unexpected that I couldn't have prepared for), and a couple of times accidentally breaking up dog fights. None serious, broken skin a few times but usually one or two holes with no requirement of stitches. The GSD incident didn't break the skin, but my arm from my wrist to my elbow was completely bruised with very deep bruising (not skin-level) and my muscles in my arm were very sore for two weeks because of it. But perhaps that's for another post.

She needs your comfort and your permission to decide when it's time.

this is so so very true - and so eloquently stated

Against

If the method you like does not help the dog, do you rather to PTS than trying something different?

If the method you like does not help the dog, do you rather to PTS than trying something different?

 
While I fully respect your position on being against, what do you say about the person who has tried many different ways? The person who is not capable of trying what might be necessary to rehabilitate that dog? The peron whose child was mauled by their dog - can you in good faith tell them that they should try to rehabilitate that dog?
 
As unfortunate as it is, or as much as you don't like the answer, there just aren't enough Cesar Milan's in training to help all of these dogs (Or Pat Miller's, or Brenda Aloff's, or Jean Donaldson's, etc, pick your professional).
 
So what then? What do you recommend to a person then who just cannot find a way to rehabilitate their animal? Keep it and put themselves or others at further risk? Send it to a no-kill shelter where it will live a life of torment by isolation? What do you recommend to the shelter? That they should take the risk and adopt out this dangerous dog? And if you are so against euthanasia (and again, I respect that you are, but there needs to be a back-up plan if it's not PTS animal), where do we house the millions of dogs we are no longer euthanizing? Where does the money come from to care for them? Where do we get the room to house them all?

ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

but I can't in good faith support the keeping of animals for years, sometimes their entire lives, in a 6 x 6 prison cell, with perhaps one, maybe two toys, with a walk and attention twice per day, and very often no contact with other dogs (some shelters do, but the majority don't seem to do a lot of regular interactions between dogs). Dogs have gone basically clinically insane living in these quarters, and simply living in these quarters for years on end, has ruined any chance for that animal to lead a normal life, even if it went into the shelter being a normal dog.

 
Just on this forum, I have seen the situatin you describe as normal in lot of our members household.  For example, crating a dog when at work and crating a dog during sleep time.  If you need to be convinced, explore the entire forum.

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

She needs your comfort and your permission to decide when it's time.

this is so so very true - and so eloquently stated

 
Yes and it should be to both medical and behavioral issue in dogs.

Ron2, your opinion should be silent until you are asked or in the situation.

I'm trying to be nice. But that is your opinion. As I stated, I may have brought that topic up in error in the other thread. I apologize for that. But I can state my opinion even if I don't have a house of fosters. Or 3 or 4 more dogs. I made another mistake, as well. That other thread did have an initial focus but threads drift and I was going along with the drift.

A previous member decided to start a thread wherein you could only comment if owned a purebreed. You could do that. Start a topic wherein you are only asking for comments from people owning or caring for more than one dog. I may still read or even comment, as we are all free to do.

Your views on PTS are welcome here, as the thread title implies. I feel, however, that just because I don't have your experience in fostering or in having a dog with greater problems doesn't mean that I can't hold an opinion on PTS. Yours and my views are welcome, whether we have one, ten, or no dogs.

As for a dog with a terminal illness, it would depend on the amount of suffering, as well as finances. Been there, done that, already, so to speak, with my previous cat, Misty. So, yes, I do have experience with an ill pet and two options and which one was the more humane one, etc. That is, though I'm not literally in your shoes, I have a pair just like them.