PTS - for or against?

 I just said I didn't have the resources. The only one that can judge that is me, or maybe someone living with me. I know my limits and I also know what I'm like. When I picked up a baby hare in distress, he became my responsibility. I chose to take him home and raise him because I judged I had the resources to do it. Knowing what I do now, I probably would not make the same assessment again. As heart-wrenching as it would have been, I would have knocked him on the head and put him out of his misery if I hadn't felt I could give him a good shot at life. Once I'd taken him, though, it became my responsibility to keep him happy and healthy, even though I discovered I didn't really have the resources to do that as I thought I had. So I made sacrifices and did my best. I'm still making sacrifices and doing my best, because an adult hare in reality is not quite what I was anticipating in my imagination when I took him home.

However, in the interests of keeping myself in check and looking after my existing furry responsibilities, I will not be deliberately going out to LOOK for animals that could drain all my resources, possibly upset my existing animal wards, and would quite possibly require more time than I currently have to give. It's not because I don't care. It's because I know my limits. If I find a dog lost, you can bet it's coming home with me until I can find it's owner, a new owner, or failing that, it would stay with me for life. If a half-wild cat turns up on my doorstep, I will most certainly be trying to coax it into sticking around and becoming part of the family. And on both accounts, I will probably not really have the resources to handle it. That's where we differ. I don't feel like I have enough time to manage more than 4 or 5 animals at a time, and I don't feel like I have enough time to manage more than 2 dogs. But if fate lands more in my lap, I guess I'll be stretching myself pretty thin to find the time.

I'd be crazy to go out rescuing animals I can't properly care for. Crazy or selfish. And while rescue dogs are often great pets, I've met one too many that needed more work than anticipated and I've had my heart broken by rescue dogs suddenly developing major behavioural problems two years after they're brought home. I judge myself unable to guarantee I have the time to deal with potential problems. So sue me for knowing what I can and can't do. And sue me for wanting a sound pet that will suit all the personalities in my family. 

corvus

I'd be crazy to go out rescuing animals I can't properly care for.

I understand where you're coming from. I, too, have only so much resources. I would not be able to do what Glenda does, taking care of 6 90+ lb dogs that can eat a pound or so a day. I don't think I could do what DPU does, taking in large dogs and the time it takes to work with them and monitor them. Though I do think he is doing a thing of great honor and charity. For one thing, I have to go out to work. Specifically, I drive 37 miles (59.5 km) to get to the office and warehouse. And then a company vehicle from there to whereever. I wouldn't feel comfortable taking on more pets unless I had the time to supervise and help socialize. I am sensitive, I suppose, to pets and their personalities and adding another pet changes the social landscape to at least some degree. I've lost count, once I became the "dog guy" around here, of the number of times someone had a pet they could no longer keep or want and were willing to just give it to me. It was hard to turn them down but I've had a rough few years financially. I have to keep the roof over our heads, first.

 To, Dyan, bless you for being Bubblegum's saving grace. Likewise, to DPU, regardless of our disagreements. To some, I may seem heartless or callused. I would like to see all dogs have a good home and for them to not have issues. And I see irony, from the Ridgeback that would require extensive management being held by a rescue for a chance at adoption, to an Akita that disliked only one dog and was PTS immediately, within the hour. To other dogs that were PTS only because they ran out of time. And it would seem, outside of a shelter policy that may be based on liability insurance, that reasons or criteria for that decision are highly personal and subjective, which is fine. I re-read my post in that other thread and I did not say PTS a dog that pulls on the leash. If that were the case, Shadow would have been PTS a while ago. But I did overreach in that thread and I apologize again, for that.

Ron,,I don't think you seem heartless at all. I understand where you are coming from.  With all the pets out there looking for homes...so many will be put down and a decision has to be made which ones.  Its too sad for me. I ignore as much as I can. I applaud people like DPU, the people that rescue dogs,,,the people that work in shelters.  They are so important....but not for me. I just would not sleep at night worrying.  At work I see so many people coming in with so many pets, people just picking up a new stray. And some just are not finanically able to really take care of one of them well.  So what is the answer?

Some people rescue because that happens to be their mission in life.....at that point one chooses to do that over any "Other Hobby"......for some it is more important than anything else........it all depends on how one looks at it....

To the young man from the south and the young lady at the bottom of the world, Ron2 and Corvus, it is not the measure of resources but the ability to deal skillfully, promptly, effectively and imaginatively with the dog(s) in the home.  In other words, it is resourcefulness that correlates with the care of the dog and that is what should define the limits, not the material things or dollar measures.  As Snownose says, it comes down to preferred choices that have nothing to do with time, space, or money.  A resourceful person would manage those things.

Ron2, you keep using the word “apologize” and I see no need for that.  You have your opinion and I expressed mine.  You express the opinion often and loudly and I guessed at 3 reasons why.  Hopefully you have learned from this thread and will be more reserved in bringing up PTS in other thread topics.  I do suggest you reread other members’ post in this thread to get a feeling of what most think.  Your “apology” will be deemed by future posts.

Now, I am disappointed that the main message in my posts is overlooked.   Ron2 and Corus have an over abundance of dog knowledge by their readings and interpretations of their residence pet’s behavior.  I simply suggest that exposure and practice on a multitude of dogs would refine their studies and give a more complete understanding to their preferred training methods or their interpretations.  Who knows, maybe a profound complete understanding or an improvement to contemporary thinking would occur. 

I did pose this question to another member a while back.  Why is it that most Behaviorists and Trainers do not do dog fostering?  It seems to be a perfect synergy relationship where the dog benefits from the trainer’s skills and the trainer are exposed to real dog behavior issues.  The answer was, we don’t want these dogs in our homes.  An honest and blunt answer but takes a lot away from the fostering mission.  So you see, this is why I say it is better to look away or be silent. 

So says the old man from the north and on top of the world.

My husband's cousin and her husband and both in service careers. She is a school teacher, he is a psychiatric nurse.  They do not wish to have any children.  For them, going to work, giving 110% and then returning home (to their dogs!) keeps them going.  Does the cousin love children any less because she chooses not to have any in her house?  Nope.

 I have a child, but there is no way I could make a career out of helping kids.  I'm thankful there are people who do. 

So why is it any different for trainers and behaviorists?  Maybe they'd like to go home an recharge, rather than being "on" at all times?  Maybe whatever they do with their current dogs would be negatively impacted by fostering?  Who knows?  And who I am to judge? 

 
There are many ways to help dogs and kids.  We don't all need to do the exact same things.
 

I think that the methods they prefer to use often cannot be used on the types of dogs that may need fostering.  And, you cannot hold it against someone that they don't want a potentially dangerous or difficult dog in their home.  They may have children or some other valid reason for not wanting them.  And, I can't say I'd blame someone even if the reason was just they didn't want to deal with it.  There have been many days when I've said I'll never take a dog like this again. 

most of the trainers I know have fosters and/or adopted rescue dogs in their homes?

My Bandit was 16 years old when one morning he couldn’t stand up.  I carried him (70 pounds) outside in the morning to go to the bathroom.  He sat, couldn’t stand and then fell over on his side.  Oh did I cry.  I called the Vet, called out of work and went right in.  The Vet gave him a shot and told me that he may gain back strength but he doubted it.  Wait until to tomorrow and then let’s see.  I brought him home, cleaned up his pee after he peed all over himself.  I cried as I hand fed him nugget by nugget.  I slept next his side all night on the floor.  But nothing changed.  In the night defecated all over him self and I cleaned him like a baby in the morning.  He again peed all over his himself, he could not stand, and he could not walk.  The Vet told me it was his time; I hugged him and cried uncontrollably as he took his last breath.  It was the saddest day in my life..   Four months later I adopted a new puppy and named him Duke, he was my new heart dog, especially since he was my companion thru a ruff and dreaded divorce and the raising of two children.  He went to every baseball and basketball game he was the team mascot for my son’s baseball team for two years.  He would swim with us everyday down at the beach. 

Fifteen years later he became almost blind, he had severe muscle deterioration in his front and back legs just like my Bandit.  He struggled every morning to get up and walk his first steps.  He fell down on the floor to lie down because he didn’t have the strength to lower himself.  He fell down simple stairs (two or three steps), he would flounder on the kitchen floor like a seal to try and get some strength to get on his feet, unsuccessfully.  I would have to run in and lift him to his feet (yet another 60 pound dog) wait for him to get his balance and then allow him to go on.  I had carpet runners up and down my hardwood hallways so he could get around.  He legs had deteriorated so bad (just like my previous dog) that he would get the feeling he had to poop and as hard he would try to get to his feet fast, he couldn’t and would be pooping while he was standing.  This went on for 6 months, I didn’t care – he wasn’t suffering I would tell my family.  After all he wasn’t in pain.  It quickly advances to me carrying him down those deck and porch steps each time he had to go to the bathroom.  I took a leave of absents from work for 3 weeks to care for my Dukie, I had hoped that his new medication might help.  My husband and SIL tried to convince me that his quality of life was not that of a happy dog and he was suffering.  I told them, he is not in pain!  So therefore he is not suffering.   Then one day he wondered to the pond and fell in, he hadn’t been able to walk that far in a year and I never expected him to go down there.  It was 6 am and I started calling for him, it was November.  I started to panic and found him drowning in the pond; he couldn’t keep himself above water.  I had to go in and save him, he was wet, skinny and so fragile looking – shaking and looking at me as if to say, I am sorry Mommy.  I cried and I cried…    I carried him into the house as I held him in my arms, wrapped in a blanket while he dried.  He was acting weird and I called the Vet and brought him in.  The Vet told me he was in shock and that he was not going to recover – he was to fragile, old and sick and he suggested I think about what’s best for him.  I wanted him buried at my home by the pond (oh how he loved to swim in that pond in his day) and asked the Vet to come to my house and PTS.  I brought him home and made arrangements for the next afternoon, the Vet would come to my home. That morning I took Duke for a car ride (oh how he loved the car) but this time he couldn’t ride comfortable, he couldn’t sit comfortably and he couldn’t stand on the seat comfortably.  He couldn’t stick his head out the window because his front legs wouldn’t give him enough support.  He just laid there and kept trying to get comfortable.  I took him to McDonalds and bought him two hamburgers and gave him an extra special treat as I cried and told him over and over again how much I loved him!    On our way home he pooped all over himself and my car, I carried him in the house – cleaned him up and held him while he took his last breath.

This subject is heart wrenching for everyone.  Some may have made there decisions earlier than me and some would have just left there dogs until they died naturally.  Which is right?  Which is wrong?  Only god knows for sure.

There is a woman on my Swissy website that had a severally aggressive Swissy.  One day at the Vet he went into a rage and started to attack patients in the weighting room.  They always believed he had some type of mental issues.  He was sick.  She worked long and hard with her boy, but after that dreaded day – she had to make the saddest decision she had ever had to make.   If you read her story you would be horrified by the sadness, what this owner did and tried to do to help this dog – but in the end they had to put him down.  It was one of the saddest stories I ever read.

I do believe some people use euthanasia as the answer, the easy way out.  I don’t think its common but it happens.  Just like the young mothers who prefer to drop their babies in the dumpster instead of at the hospital, firehouse or police were no questions are asked.  Many people take to dropping the dogs – my sister lives in Barstow, the dessert in California – people do this ALL THE TIME!!  They drop them to die.  I wish they would have PTS in stead.    But they, I believe, are not the humane and loving people we all wish society could be.

DPU

will be more reserved in bringing up PTS in other thread topics. 

Agreed.

And I agree about resources, too. But more than money is time. Now, if I had been able to rescue Shadow's old friend, Duke, it would have been easy as they were already best buddies. But I will stipulate that solutions can be found, even if it were to mean crating a dog for some time. But I know I've stated more than once why I don't just add pets as if they were plug and play options in a computer. So, I won't bother re-hashing that. Of course, I'm not a trainer or behaviorist and I don't know the hard stats on how many of them do or do not foster animals. I can only hazard a guess that some of them may not have the time if they are busy handling other people's problems. Or may have had enough of it during the day. As I like to say, the electrician's house is the darkest one on the street. He/she has been changing light bulbs all day and doesn't feel like changing another one. But that's just a guess. But I think some trainers do have more than one dog, though they may not be fosters. They are likely permanent members of the group which, imo, may require as much work as foster that are adopted later on. I could certainly be wrong, have no experience with either situation.

For us it's all a balance, and that balance swings back and forth with the ebb and flow of our lives.

both Davey and I have demanding jobs - and periodically we wind up working tons of overtime, and sometimes my health issues *sigh* can overshadow my best intentions of what I *want* to do vs. what I can do.

 A few years ago we did a LOT of fostering -- really rewarding.  The reasons we stepped away from it were many, but the most compelling reason was that it negatively impacted our 'pack' -- I had an old guy at the time who just plain didn't have the 'patience' for it and we have a small house.  It became obvious to us that we were dong Mike a big dis-service - HE suffered from the come & go of fosters.

So we stepped back and 'kept' the foster we had.  Just as happenstance would have it, that was Muffin the Intrepid and he ushered in a whole new opportunity with HIS myriad health issues (demodex, then mega ear problems, then bi-lateral ear ablations, teaching a dog sign, exposing the 3 we had to more pet therapy to utilize Muffin's strengths (and Foxy's and then Sock's) and we simply moved more to training (and Muffin's immune system required some handling).

Training and fostering aren't mutually exclusive but for *us* at the time it was simply because of the number of hours in a day, travel to trainers on weekends, coupled with hours at pet therapy.

 For us it was simply a matter of growth -- we will likely foster more heaviliy some day (and have done some but not 'heavy' like we did at one time).  Mostly -- we try to keep busy doing positive stuff.  Now that Billy's IMHA is more under control we have the ability to move back into pet therapy.

 Honestly I think it's too unique to the situation to call -- at least for us it is.  "balance" is important to us -- to our commitment to each other and the commitments we make to organizations.

 Boy did this thread get heavy -- but it's all good stuff.  Really good thought provoking stuff.  Thanks!!

If DPU hadn't come out strongly against making PTS decisions I wouldn't know what this world had come to. I know a few foster folks myself (I failed at that job) and theirs has never been to decide when a foster should be PTS.

 So, on that note, yes, I've had to make that tough decision and I can't stand thinking about it to this day and I dread having to even consider it again. I have a dog that would have been PTS in most homes but he's safe enough here at mine. He's really coming along and though his osteoarthritis is bad, and though I know it will eventually cause him enough pain that his life will end, for now he's happy, he's smart, and he's loved. (And much improved with his behaviors, too.)

DPU

To the young man from the south and the young lady at the bottom of the world, Ron2 and Corvus, it is not the measure of resources but the ability to deal skillfully, promptly, effectively and imaginatively with the dog(s) in the home.  In other words, it is resourcefulness that correlates with the care of the dog and that is what should define the limits, not the material things or dollar measures.  As Snownose says, it comes down to preferred choices that have nothing to do with time, space, or money.  A resourceful person would manage those things.

 

Now, I am disappointed that the main message in my posts is overlooked.   Ron2 and Corus have an over abundance of dog knowledge by their readings and interpretations of their residence pet’s behavior.  I simply suggest that exposure and practice on a multitude of dogs would refine their studies and give a more complete understanding to their preferred training methods or their interpretations.  Who knows, maybe a profound complete understanding or an improvement to contemporary thinking would occur. 

 

I did pose this question to another member a while back.  Why is it that most Behaviorists and Trainers do not do dog fostering?  It seems to be a perfect synergy relationship where the dog benefits from the trainer’s skills and the trainer are exposed to real dog behavior issues.  The answer was, we don’t want these dogs in our homes.  An honest and blunt answer but takes a lot away from the fostering mission.  So you see, this is why I say it is better to look away or be silent. 

 

 

 

Well, it is and it isn't. No amount of desire and good intentions will give me the time and money to take on what I can't take on due to time and money constraints. However, as I said with Kit, I discovered I didn't have the time and money to give him what he needed, but it was too late to pull out, so I committed what time and money I was able to commit and managed. It was very, very draining, and I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more if I had truly had the time and money I needed for that hare. I don't regret taking him into the family, but I don't think it was the best thing I could have done for him. One of the hardest things I've done is admitting that to myself.

I am not especially interested in the fostering effort. Just as I'm not especially interested in giving money to things like AIDS research. Doesn't mean I don't think it's wonderful that there are people out there driven to donate their resources so generously to those causes, just that I don't share the same motivation. If I ever did try fostering, it would be fostering wild animals, not dogs. Because that's who I am and where my passion lies. I would dearly like to sink all my spare time into rehabbing wildlife, but again, I don't have enough time to be there to feed them every few hours, or take them to the vets every 2 weeks. And I can't stretch my budget right now to build the required enclosures and feed the wildlife fosters. Sorry, but I've got a dog, a rabbit, a hare, and a boyfriend who I have committed to first, and I'm not prepared to take from them in order to give to something else, and that's what I'd have to do to make it work.

Some things are more important to people than others. I think when it comes to euthanising, I can only trust those that have taken responsibility for the animal, those that love it. But I know sometimes people don't think of euthanasia as an option, or maybe they don't want to say it because they're afraid people will jump down their throats. When I bring up that option in this forum, it is to reassure folks that anything they choose will be right in my books and that we will all support them no matter what. That's fair, isn't it? Sometimes I think it's good to mention the unmentionable. It makes it real, and making it real makes it easier to think seriously what your options are and pick the right one for you and the animal in question.  

corvus

No amount of desire and good intentions will give me the time and money to take on what I can't take on due to time and money constraints.

Kudos to you for admitting later in your reply that your not that into fostering to begin with, which doesn't lessen your love for animals.

But I quoted the above statement because I'm not sure that many are aware that you are at university. That you live on what we call a shoe-string budget. That you literally count pennies. I do believe there is a point at which finances do make the difference. There have been many discussions where it was stated that if you couldn't afford this or that, then you shouldn't own a pet. So, for me, it's okay not to foster if you don't have the money. I believe and understand you.

I also agree with the notion that person can do what their heart desires. As Snownose put it, for some people, it's their "thing."

ron2

corvus

No amount of desire and good intentions will give me the time and money to take on what I can't take on due to time and money constraints.

 

Kudos to you for admitting later in your reply that your not that into fostering to begin with, which doesn't lessen your love for animals.

But I quoted the above statement because I'm not sure that many are aware that you are at university. That you live on what we call a shoe-string budget. That you literally count pennies. I do believe there is a point at which finances do make the difference. There have been many discussions where it was stated that if you couldn't afford this or that, then you shouldn't own a pet. So, for me, it's okay not to foster if you don't have the money. I believe and understand you.

I also agree with the notion that person can do what their heart desires. As Snownose put it, for some people, it's their "thing."

To the man from the south (yes, demoted again), you are yo yoing.  From the last post you agreed with my defiition of resources and now with your latest post, you changed.

Corvus, by blunting stating you are not interesting in fostering, it is my turn to look away.  I think as you get older and more mature, the bluntness will be softened.  See ya when you get older.