PTS - for or against?

ORIGINAL: dgriego

ORIGINAL: Angelique

A man was walking on a beach when he came upon a mass stranding of starfish. He watched as a monk carefully picked up a starfish, waded out into the ocean, and gently placed it back into the water.

The man asked, "What does it matter if you save one starfish when so many others will die?".

The monk replied, "It matters to this starfish".

[]

I think we have been operating under this process. It is great for each person to think in such a way, as every "starfish" that you personally save is good. Most of us posting on this forum are doing this to some extent. Maybe you have a dog that was a washed up "starfish" or maybe you foster them, or maybe you volunteer at shelters and rescues or just provide money. All that is good, we are making a difference to the one starfish.
But the greater problem is "why are the starfish being washed up onto the beach in such numbers? Is there anything that can be done to prevent the mass washing up of starfish on the beach? Is there anything we can do to get more people to come and assist us in throwing back the starfish?
What if people are putting the starfish in buckets of fresh water, trying to save them but causing more suffering to the starfish, what if they take them home to their aquariums and forget to regulate the water temperature and salt levels resulting in death to the starfish? In those cases would it have been better had we quickly ended the starfish's life there on the beach, surrounded by the environment they were accustomed to and surrounded by people who really cared about them, than to allow them to suffer in the fresh water buckets and aquariums of the world?

ORIGINAL: fuzzy_dogs_mom

DPU, I don't think anybody should ever be made to feel  like they need to keep  their opinions silent because someone else might not agree with them. Everyone is free to speak their opinions, and everyone else is free to take those opinions to heart or to ignore them.
 
Joyce

DPU

I just think it is in bad taste and that is how I was brought up.  Can't change at this stage of my life.

You may have thought I acted in bad taste and that I was ungentlemanly. That was not what I intended and I've already apologized for that. 

Once again, it seems that I was a bit premature bringing up such a thing in that other thread. And I apologize, yet again. I realize that my apology may do nothing to stop the trickle of back-handed insults but I am sincere.

To the topic of this thread, I fully agree it is a case by case issue. And we have exceptional people here. For example, Lori and her dog, Willow. In other hands, Willow would most likely have been PTS (I'm paraphrasing, I think, Lori's words). And Lori is nothing less than exceptional. To suggest that she is anything but exceptional would be, imho, plain wrong. And I always value her input. And I agree that the Akita at our local shelter could have been managed better. I also know that, typically, the people around here do not have the level of dog education that we have in this forum. What they do have is jobs that take up to 8 or 12 hours a day and 2.3 children. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I might say that, in the whole county, there might be counted on one hand or less, the number of people who would even have a clue about an Akita, including me and my limited knowledge on them. And, too, it might have been possible for a rescue org to take the Akita. But I didn't have the number to one and I am not sure this shelter would release him. When they decided to PTS him, there was no waiting a day. Another ACO was being sent out immediately to collect him and take him for his final ride.

As for opinions, when you are in a situation where your opinion must be kept silent because someone else disagrees with it, that is a fascist, possibly dictator state. Have I been socially ungraceful? No doubt. Which doesn't mean I'm not a gentleman. Are some of my opinions misinformed? Possibly. They have been so in the past and there's a possibility of it in the future. And this wouldn't be the first time where a misstep of mine eradicates any good I may have ever done. In fact, I was raised with impossible standards and swift retribution, verbal and physical. An old phrase comes to mind. But I will alter to be more fitting. "I've been called worse by people closer to me."

DPU

 
 
I understand what you are saying.  I just think it is in bad taste and that is how I was brought up.  Can't change at this stage of my life.

I don't think it would be in bad to offer an opinion on whatever is being discussed.  However, the way that the opinion is given could most definitely be in bad taste.

Joyce

 I'm one of those (morally reprehensible?) people that think saving tigers is an appalling waste of resources. Conservation biology nearly broke my heart and drove me to new heights of hatred for the human race and big cats of any kind to me are about the most beautiful creatures on the planet. However. There are so very many species that need help. What I see now is a whole lot of resources being essentially wasted on big, charismatic species that are heading inexorably to extinction. If we took those resources and put them somewhere more sensible, we could secure the futures of perhaps dozens, maybe even hundreds of threatened species that are merely vulnerable rather than critically endangered. To me, the only use in saving tigers is that they're an umbrella species.

This might seem off-topic, but it serves to demonstrate how I feel about my responsibility for the greater natural world. It's tough, but I'm a realist and we can't save it all. Best to put our resources to the best possible use to benefit the most.

When it comes to individuals that you have taken responsibility for, I would hope that you would know when the animal was more often unhappy than happy. The cat I loved with all my heart was PTS last Christmas. I was deeply sad to see him go, but so relieved for him, because every day had become a trial of pain and he was senile. Some days he didn't even know who I was. I had to ask myself, what are we saving here? Because my cat isn't really in there anymore.

When it comes to behavioural problems, I think the one who has taken responsibilty for that animal should be able to make that decision without judgment from others. We had one dog PTS due to behavioural issues when I was at uni. I was devastated, particularly because I didn't get a chance to say goodbye, but my own dog's life was at stake and my mother was falling apart with the stress. At some point, you have to decide who is more important than who. I only hope that people can do that before it's too late. It's going to come across as brutal, but dogs in my world have to fit in. They live in a human world and that's tough on them, but it's how it is. If I don't have the time to deal with some serious behavioural problems that could impact on others, then I have no business taking responsibility for that dog. And that's why I don't intend to get a dog from a shelter. For those that do have the time and resources to handle serious behavioural problems, thank god for you.

Corvus says:  "...And that's why I don't intend to get a dog from a shelter. For those that do have the time and resources to handle serious behavioural problems, thank god for you."

I don't want to explore my feelings as to why, but it bewilders me when people not involved, not interested, have the resources, don't care about the shelter dog, and then they say thank you to those of us that do help.  When I stand in front of the big box store with a dog at my side, a sign, and a tin cup, I can spot those that will help and those that will not.  For those that don't, they simply look in another direction.  I wish those that thank us but refuse to help would just look away.

DPU

I don't want to explore my feelings as to why, but it bewilders me when people not involved, not interested, have the resources, don't care about the shelter dog, and then they say thank you to those of us that do help.  

Anyone with a spare bedroom has enough resources to take in a homeless person, but we don't berate each other for not doing that. Everyone with a few spare hours on a Saturday afternoon could be serving as a big brother or sister to a child in need .... volunteerism and charitable work IS a hallmark of American Society. But it is entirely voluntary, and there are lots of areas to cover: animals, environment, children, the elderly, the sick, the mentally incapacitated ....
 

I think serving well is the best beacon for  ... serving well. :-)

Ron2 says:  "I may have brought that topic up in error in the other thread. I apologize for that".

The man from the south may or may not have genuinely apologized, it is the "may" that raises doubt.

Since coming to this forum, there has been a change in how most members approach the subject of PTS.  The subject is treated more delicately with respect to the personal and emotional aspect of dealing with a situation.  If members want to sway, they offer help in the form of suggestions, referrals, and describing specific training techniques.  Rarely, and it may be just one member, does someone say PTS because the dog does not walk well on a leash.  Rarely do we see cutoff lines that defines when to PTS without getting more involved in the personal situation. 

The man from the south has in many past post brought up, IMO, the subject of PTS, possibly to bait or possibly to debate or discuss or even for the sake of expressing an opinion just because he can and wants to show that he can.  PTS is a very serious matter.  Once again, I think if the man from the south was more closer to the situation and involved, the very public expression may change.  So say the gentleman from the north.

From my post, you may substitute the word "shelter dog" for any other living thing that is in need.  My resources are at their capacity.

DPU

Rarely, and it may be just one member, does someone say PTS because the dog does not walk well on a leash. 

That's not what I said and I think you know that but you are accusing me of baiting.

I have apologized more than once, but as you have done in the past, you simply will not forgive.

I also get the "object lesson" of "there may be no gentlemen in the south" or words to that effect. To say such a thing is, of course, grossly inaccurate, even if I am not seen as a gentleman. Your point, I assume, being that painting with a broad brush can obscure finer details, to use a metaphor. I get it. But may I ask you to examine your reaction, as well? When you felt I was in error, you did not, that I can remember, say something like, perhaps that's a bit broad or could you illustrate a case of what you mean. Or pm me for an explanation or even a concern that my post might be read with the wrong intention. Instead, you strove to correct me, call me names, and tell me my opinion doesn't count and should be vanquished. No, you did not use my name specifically but I don't think many do not know what you mean by "man from the south." And that by no longer referring to my name, I am somehow, persona non grata. Well, it's not the first time.

 The reason I post this in the thread rather than a pm is, for one thing, the pm won't work. This new system has bugs. Secondly, this is my object lesson on how easily people are driven to correct, rather than offer a positive alternative, even in our exchanges with others. See how easy it is for you to not accept my apology, appeasement, see how easy it is to keep hammering away, call me ungentlemanly, accuse me of posting in bad taste (and the latter may be correct, btw), and now I'm baiting for arguments? As for the name-calling, such as someone else calling me a protege of Spiritdogs (I am not, but it would be an honor), or me being ungentlemanly, or uncouth, and a baiter, whether or not that name-calling is against the rules or not, I can take it. I guess I need to be a protege of Kim, as well. She got called uppity and handles it well, too.

When I got Bubblegum, she was kind of scary.  She has a stare about her that made her look like she was going to bite you.  In fact,,,just a month or so ago...my son said to me "why does she have to look at you that way??"   Its just her eyes.    But she is a big dog.. I got her at 3 yrs old and I didn't know her at all.   I was leary. Posters at Idog at that time will remember my asking for help for her...constantly.    Eventually she attacked my favorite dog... Ollie...my sons Great Dane.  I called her breeder and told her I will probably give her back. My other son who works with the breeders husband..said they will put her down.  I could not do that to her, I would not do that to her.      

I made the decision to work with her as much as I can...and get her to be the dog as close to being the dog I want...as I can get.   DH and I decided we will protect her,,if from herself.  That means,,, I bought her a shock collar... (for extra control) and we decided that we will not let her by kids...or people that we have to worry about her with.    We love her...she is the smartest, sweetest dog I could have...she is my heart dog.  But I know in my heart that she has issues that have to be controlled.    We made that decision.    If my sons eventually have children...they will not be by her for longer than a bit..with us watching her 100% of the time.  She is ours.... the children will be theirs.  She is our responsibility, and we love her.   She has had a time or two when she did bite a human softly....by that I mean..she did not attack.., she did not growl or snarl..jump up or anything like that. She was startled or thought the person (my son) was reaching to her...maybe to hit her.  I do not like it,,, I wish she wasn't like that....but I will not PTS unless she shows more meanness or aggression.  There are probably people out there that would put her down for what she is.

So in my heart.  PTS for a dog that is loved and taken care of,  watched and protected, is just not an option.   If they had her issues and no home...or there was fear to find her a home..then it would be different.  I would not want to see her with anyone else..other than someone like us.

DPU, I think a lot of people still assume that dogs wind up in shelters mainly for serious behavior problems.  Although on some level they may understand that it isn't necessarily so, they still can't get that picture out of their minds. You really can't blame someone for feeling like they can't (or just plain don't want to) deal with serious issues. When I adopted Max I never gave issues a thought.  Maybe that was foolish and I feel very lucky that he doesn't seem to have any.  But he was only a pup (3 to 5 months) and he was only in the shelter for 10 days when I found him. If he were to develop serious issues, I'd certainly find a way to work through them. And when people comment on how they'd be afraid to adopt from a shelter because "they don't know what they would get" I  take the opportunity to tell  them some of the really silly reasons that dogs wind up there ... he drools, he sheds, he barks at the mailman, he got bigger than I thought he would, he digs holes, etc. etc.

Joyce

When I was growing up, our dog had some issues. Once when I was trying to pick her up for whatever reason (I was like 12) she turned around and bit me square in the face. I had a tiny tooth mark on my forehead and on my chin. We didn't even consider something like putting her down. I probably screamed at her and then went on my way, I really don't remember. The family rule was that she had to go outside at night (though I would often sneak her into my room at night) and on most days I was the only one she'd allow to take her outside to her pen. (Couldn't just open the door, had to lead her out to a fenced area not attached to the house). She'd often outright growl at anyone else if they tried. Still, no one ever thought to put her to sleep for aggression. We didn't fear for our safety, we just knew the dog had boundaries. She liked me better because I spent nearly all my free time with her, laying with her on the floor and teaching her tricks, etc. I think if you genuinely fear for your life, your other pets life, your kids life, etc, and no therapy has worked, then maybe it's the only solution. If the dog just has major attitude I think it would be ridiculous to think about ending his life. Of course, it all really depends on the individual. A dog could be sort of acting funny for years and then snap. But the same could happen with a nice friendly dog. My sister had to pts a dog she had, he'd be resting or sleeping or doing whatever, and all of a sudden he would outright attack whoever was closest, completely at random. And then after a few minutes he'd go back to whatever he was doing. She thought he had a brain tumor, I dunno if there was a necropsy done or anything. I think most of it really just depends on the individual dog and how much of a threat he is, and if there is actually hope that he can live comfortably and everyone around him can live comfortably. I do kind of feel that if someone is having a ton of behavioral problems with a dog, maybe it would be better all around if that dog were pts, and another dog that didn't have problems was adopted or rescued (NOT purchased). Personally I don't know where I could draw the line if it were my own pets life on the line.