PTS - for or against?

    • Gold Top Dog
    I think something else that we're all kind of touching on is worth saying bluntly.  (and I didn't read the other thread, so my apologies if this isn't quite appropriate)
     
    In this day and age, you say "shelter" and MANY definitions may apply.  I know here in Florida that aside from the whole issue of breeders (good or bad) but talking about dogs that have to be placed because they've been ditched or left feral  (and I'm not sure *why* this is the case - it may be all over, it maybe not) the two main 'receptacles' for unwanted dogs are obviously Animal Control (tax money funds that) and, in the case of Central FL, the "SPCA of Central FL" (not 'humane society' -- different entity and no presence here officially that I'm aware of).
     
    But here in FL there thrive many independant "shelters" -- some breed rescue (some more loosely than others) and some just people who cull the two above entities, as well as being open for anyone to dump a dog with them -- and then they try to place these dogs (usually and hopefully they at least have a "kennel" license).  This group runs the gamut -- from someone who will go out and crawl thru orange groves to save a box of puppies they heard about, to very tightly controlled breed-rescue who charge up to $250 and more to **take** in a dog and who charge that and more to place one.  Most of your SPCA and AC people won't take puppies under 6-8 weeks.  They euthanize on entrance.   Particularly AC will euthanize for ANYTHING contagious -- from any form of mange (whether truly contagious or not) to a dog they think potentially could have parvo/distemper, etc.
     
    The smaller groups take bigger risks *usually* -- but they are very short-staffed, and honestly often not people well versed in behavior management -- often long on heart, short on control over where the dog is placed; but conversely they can be exactly the opposite -- very well run, very very dog-saavy people, and it seems sometimes TOO controlled about where a dog goes.
     
    In short, my point is there is no consistency over how these decisions are made and there is liability on all sides.
     
    If we're just talking generally, I think what each are saying has merit. 
     
    Lori, you put it SO well -- particularly the caveat where you said none BUT Willow really would do for you.  You handle her so well -- she has all SHE needs (and I'm sorry, I think the particular bond with a human and enjoying that time with THAT human is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more important than whether the dog gets to go to a dog park or not!!!  Those individual emotional needs for dog and human are truly paramount!).
     
    Just like David and I are able to take on dogs like Billy and some of the ones we've had in the past (like little handicapped Pollyanna, and Muffin the Intrepid with his myriad health issues) -- part of the unique bond with those dogs IS our capability to deal with those issues.
     
    Had Billy been placed with ANYONE else (he was touted SOOO highly as a dog that needed to be with children, and then we find out he is TERRIFIED of and was horribly reactive to little blonde girls!!!!) he would likely have been PTS before his ears ever healed. 
     
    3 years later (and all the many many incredibly costsly health issues that have arisen) -- his ears (which looked like the deal breaker for most people when we got him thinking he was deaf and already needed bi-lateral ear ablations)  we're still de-sensitizing him and working with those fear/panic issues, not to mention our willingness to put, what for some folks is way over a year's pay into his treatment for IMHA.  That's part of OUR bond with this dog and our efforts to help others who encounter like problems. 
     
    But I think every one of those different shelter types are going to, of necessity, have different criteria for what they deem necessary to euthanize.  Simply because of the nature of their own existance and the liability they have.  And I think the question often comes down to "can we save THIS dog and if we can't will anyone else?"  But often it goes no further ... and no one LOOKS for the Lori's of this world, or for people like David and I who will take on something and see it thru (and we didn't KNOW with Billy -- we simply rolled with it after we had made the commitment to him, just because it's how we do things).
     
    I guess I'm saying I think a whole lot of it comes down to the specific individuals who wind up with these dogs and their ability or inability to work with it. 
     
    We saw Billy for an extended period of time the day we looked at him, with a 6 year old BOY who wore braces and used a walker.  He was AWESOME with this child.  but had he gone home with someone who was taking him home to their active NORMAL 6 year old, and the two little blonde girls from next door had run over full tilt, screaming to a stop in front of Billy "HE'S SOOOOOOOOOO CUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTE" wrappng their arms around his neck --
     
    somebuddy's face would have gotten ripped off and he'd have been PTS in a heartbeat.  We simply are so careful we never allowed that situation to occur (it came close ... in a parking lot when he went to visit a nursing home and THREE little blond girls swooped in on him from 3 different angles).  We stopped it at a snarl (and I was completely devastated).
     
    I didn't mean to muddy the waters here -- but it's a difficult topic and one that I just don't think there's "an answer" for -- but I do think it's more than just an owner decision.  I think every step of the way you could get a completely different answer depending on who temperament tests an animal and how saavy they are.
     
    It's funny -- in all the posts I've done about Billy, very very few have ever mentioned his problem.  I don't have to 'micro-manage' Billy (good good description, Lori) EXCEPT when we're around a lot of people/kids.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Callie,
     
    So what do you think of my stance.  You (not specifically you) describe your dog situation on the internet and all of a sudden someone says PTS because the dog pulls and it will never be fixed but managed and that is a factor in quality of life for te dog.  Do you think that is ok or should such opinions be silent.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

    While I fully respect your position on being against, what do you say about the person who has tried many different ways? The person who is not capable of trying what might be necessary to rehabilitate that dog? The peron whose child was mauled by their dog - can you in good faith tell them that they should try to rehabilitate that dog?

    As unfortunate as it is, or as much as you don't like the answer, there just aren't enough Cesar Milan's in training to help all of these dogs (Or Pat Miller's, or Brenda Aloff's, or Jean Donaldson's, etc, pick your professional).

    So what then? What do you recommend to a person then who just cannot find a way to rehabilitate their animal? Keep it and put themselves or others at further risk? Send it to a no-kill shelter where it will live a life of torment by isolation? What do you recommend to the shelter? That they should take the risk and adopt out this dangerous dog? And if you are so against euthanasia (and again, I respect that you are, but there needs to be a back-up plan if it's not PTS animal), where do we house the millions of dogs we are no longer euthanizing? Where does the money come from to care for them? Where do we get the room to house them all?


    PTS because the owner was not "smart" enought to train the dog from puppyhood and trying to find help till the problem was too big for the owner to handle? PTS for human mistakes or ignorance is just plain dumb

    We would have to see wich each dog if the owner really and i mean REALLY tried everything possible to help the dog or it is just an excuse for not to have to put up with the time and effort to do it, what if it was their kid? whats the difference?

    I agree with Angelique:

    ORIGINAL: Angelique

    I'm against, unless the dog is terminally ill and living in pain with no hope of recovery.

    Putting a dog down for human caused behavior problems, is unacceptable to me.

    Putting a dog down because there are too many dogs and "easier, more adoptable dogs" who need the resources and space the shelter has to offer, is unacceptable to me. But, that is the shelter director's decision.

    Putting a dog down on the recommendation from a trainer who can't resolve the dog's issues using their preferred method, is unacceptable to me. Get a second opinion from another trainer who uses a bigger toolbox, range of philosophies, and methods than the first trainer, before putting your dog down.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Second one was an Akita from our local shelter. He attacked one particular dog twice, getting along fine with the others. In the second attack, the blood present was his own, as the other dog scratched or bit only in self-defense or even as a result of the mechanics of motion, such as moving a paw to get away and accidently scratching the muzzle. This dog could have been fine on leash where distance could be increased to get out of the range of reactivity. But two attacks in one day was enough for the shelter to PTS. But I don't know how many people in our area would be savvy enough to handle an Akita. And our shelter does have limited resources. Their mobile pet adoption trailer is the result of a donation from someone with lots of money. And they do have insured liability to think about.


    I can understand the shelter doesn't want to adopt a dog that's a liability.  But, honestly, that Akita should  never have been put in that situation.  Akita's aren't exactly dog friendly dogs once they saw it wasn't going well they should of ended it the first try. 

    A breed like that should probably have gone to a rescue where people who were educated about the breed could find the right owner.  MHO, there are certain breeds that should not be put in a city type of a shelter where any family that just decides they would like a dog for the kids could potentially end up with it.  Or, a family where the parents had a golden when they were growing up and now think that they can handle any dog the same way.

    Consistently reactive to every dog that walked within view.

    Willow is just like that.  She's better at times than others but that pretty much describes her.  In my hands, she doesn't need to be put to sleep for that.  In someone elses though, well, they may have had the choice taken from them a long time ago. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: espencer

    ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

      Send it to a no-kill shelter where it will live a life of torment by isolation? What do you recommend to the shelter? That they should take the risk and adopt out this dangerous dog? And if you are so against euthanasia (and again, I respect that you are, but there needs to be a back-up plan if it's not PTS animal), where do we house the millions of dogs we are no longer euthanizing? Where does the money come from to care for them? Where do we get the room to house them all?


    , what if it was their kid? whats the difference?


     
    Kim has a gret point. is it humane for a dog to live out his life in a no kill shelter? Who pays? Can the money be spent on dogs that can be adopted? If yes then should it be spent where it will do the most good?
     
    espencer
     
     If people were allowed by the law and by society to treat their children in the same manner that they can their dogs, I am confident that there are some who would PTS, there are more that would drop them off at a shelter. it is the law and the stigma of "child neglect" that prevent some people from dumping their kids. Even with the law their are still those who "dump" their kids.
    • Gold Top Dog
    DPU--You didn't ask me but I've been speaking out a lot this weekend, LOL!

    People are going to have their opinions, right or wrong.  A lot of people told me to put Willow to sleep when I first got her.  I thought about it too.

    In the end, only you will know if you will be able to trust that someone you place the dog with will do everything possible to ensure that that dog does not fail.
    For me, it was a lot of late nights up reading about NILIF, training, alpha, how to be a good leader, what type of "leadership" she would respond best to, the breed itself, etc.  That and managing every move she makes, every encounter with people and other animals.  The person is going to need to be willing to do all the learning plus possibly some life altering. 

    It took Willow two years to find us.  She was in a yard in Vermont.  We live five hours away.  If we can find each other then I'd like to believe there is someone out there for this dog too.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Kim has a gret point. is it humane for a dog to live out his life in a no kill shelter? Who pays? Can the money be spent on dogs that can be adopted? If yes then should it be spent where it will do the most good?

     
    I guess that would depend on what type of situation in the shelter they are in.  Where I am, there is one "house" dog that never got adopted that they kept.  He roams free in the shelter and hangs out in the office.  He gets walks and vet care.  He thinks he is home. I'm sure they are using all the same funds for him as they would any dog there. 
     
    There is no guarantee that the next dog is going to be adopted either.  I see lots of great, friendly dogs still sitting there. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    A man was walking on a beach when he came upon a mass stranding of starfish. He watched as a monk carefully picked up a starfish, waded out into the ocean, and gently placed it back into the water.

    The man asked, "What does it matter if you save one starfish when so many others will die?".

    The monk replied, "It matters to this starfish".

    [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Angelique
    Putting a dog down for human caused behavior problems, is unacceptable to me. But, that is the owner's decision.


    I know this attitude exists, that all problems are caused by humans, but I don't believe it.  I didn't before Ivan, and I don't now.  Then again, my area of speciality in the human world is mental illness, and the collective we used to think parents caused all kinds of mental problems in their kids.  Thankfully we've come a ways since then, and realize that while environment matters serious mental illness is not caused by poor parenting.

    I have no reason to think that dogs are never "mentally ill," or that dogs who miss key developmental inputs are always fixable.  The dog I put down was never normal, from the time I got him at 7 weeks.  I'm not the world's bestest dog trainer, and of course I made mistakes, but I do not for one moment think Ivan's problems were a result of our handling.  I am aware that there will always be people who think it must be true that we either gave up too soon or screwed him up in the first place, and I don't take it personally.  It is ignorance, in my mind, and not based on the reality. 

    Everyone who knew my husband and I were both (a) shocked that we killed our dog, and (b) relieved that we did so. He scared people.  We're known as those people who will go to any lengths for our pets.  I scoop up bugs and carry them outside, and cringe any time I ever have to spray a line ants coming into my house.  Life is pretty damn precious to me. 

    • Gold Top Dog
    DPU, sorry, I was out of the house for a bit so I didn't see your post right away.
     
    This is gonna be a 'me' answer (and I have a feeling that may be part of the general answer that touches your question to be honest).  Meaning, MY answer is going to be colored by my personality ...
     
    As long as someone says a thing nicely to me, whether it's on here, at work, or on the street -- I'm going to take that input and either act on it or file it away in my general "frame of reference" file.  And sometimes I say things to total strangers on the street or in the car next to me that *I* perceive as "valuable input" and my British husband cringes and says sotto voce next to me "DON'T say things like that with the car window open - -allow people their privacy!"
     
    He annoys me, I annoy him -- bottom line, he knows me and I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say because it's part of MY personal makeup to offer what I see as a valid observation.
     
    When someone says something to me that I may absolutely wildly disagree with, it may cause gorge to rise in my throat and I may WANT to scratch eyeball out.  But I'm not going to.  AND, like it or not, I'm going to consider that opinion.  I may toss it on its ear, but I'm at LEAST going to walk forward advised that someone else (maybe even an intelligent someone else) disagrees and has offered what, in their perception, is a valid point. 
     
    I may honestly have to go take Maalox to swallow past my distaste for that opinion (anyone read the 'shots' one yesterday -- it's a good example), but not only am I going to allow them to say it, but I'm going to walk forward advised that other valid opinions may exist (altho I may think they are beyond just 'wrong' to UNBELIEVABLY wrong) with the knowledge that I'd just pretty darned well watch my P's & Q's because if I trip over it, someone is gonna be right there to hurl it back in my face.
     
    Now I have a friend, on the other hand ... he's one of those people who NEVER wants bad news.  If you 'know' a thing that is adverse or detrimental to something that touches him or his family -- keep your mouth shut or he's likely gonna help you shut it.    His daughter is very ill, and she's taking the same immune-suppressor drug Billy's taken, and flatly I know all the nasty side-effects and more than a few tricks on how to combat them.  But if it's not coming out of the mouth of a doctor HE PAYS he doesn't want to hear it.  He's only going to listen to what their doctor says ...that's it.  It is part and parcel of how HE copes -- rather than trying to cope with doubt and worry, he ties it off and says it doesn't exist. 
     
    On a few occasions I've volunteered some information, and have caused some hurt -- and I constantly battle my own inner battle of whether to make darned sure he is AWARE (whether he wants to be or not) that he really ought to check on something and I've gotten soundly verbally slapped for it.  I'm the first to say I truly do NOT understand someone who sticks their head in the sand that way -- it's almost like the little kid who sits doing something he KNOWS will get him in trubble but he has his hands over his eyes and says 'YOU can't SEE me!!' -- if he can't see YOU can't see and that ends that!
     
    IN my life, I've had to deal too many times with the consequences of my own lack of knowledge so *I* want to know.  Even if what you have to tell me is distasteful and I may agree wildly -- I still want to know.     I'll check it out and maybe ... just maybe .... it may alter how I feel.  Maybe it's only going to change how I feel by making me even MORE careful to make sure I don't screw up.  But like it or not, I *will* process that information.
     
    I hope this makes sense -- I'm not seeing any 'right or wrong' here.  But these are heavy heavy issues that a lot of us DO deal with.  And I think it's valuable to learn how others have come by their decisions.
     
    And as ... who was it, Angelique ... who said -- I may be throwing starfish back one by one ... and maybe I'll only be able to throw ONE back.  But I can make a difference to that one.  And in my own peanut, finite mind, I am accountable to the Alpha of all Alphas for that one.  May  I do it right.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Angelique

    A man was walking on a beach when he came upon a mass stranding of starfish. He watched as a monk carefully picked up a starfish, waded out into the ocean, and gently placed it back into the water.

    The man asked, "What does it matter if you save one starfish when so many others will die?".

    The monk replied, "It matters to this starfish".

    [;)]

     
     I think we have been operating under this process. It is great for each person to think in such a way, as every "starfish" that you personally save is good. Most of us posting on this forum are doing this to some extent. Maybe you have a dog that was a washed up "starfish" or maybe you foster them, or maybe you volunteer at shelters and rescues or just provide money. All that is good, we are making a difference to the one starfish.
     But the greater problem is "why are the starfish being washed up onto the beach in such numbers? Is there anything that can be done to prevent the mass washing up of starfish on the beach? Is there anything we can do to get more people to come and assist us in throwing back the starfish?
     What if people are putting the starfish in buckets of fresh water, trying to save them but causing more suffering to the starfish, what if they take them home to their aquariums and forget to regulate the water temperature and salt levels resulting in death to the starfish? In those cases would it have been better had we quickly ended the starfish#%92s life there on the beach, surrounded by the environment they were accustomed to and surrounded by people who really cared about them, than to allow them to suffer in the fresh water buckets and aquariums of the world?
    • Gold Top Dog
    As the owner of two behavior problem dogs, who both have serious health issues, it's been reccomended to me time and again that I euthanize or rehome one or the other of them. Most times, it's people who are trying to help. I have had Emma in the vet's office, to be euthanized, in the past. It turned out that she had a health problem causing her aggression. I'm very glad that I ran that "last" blood panel. People who meet her now have no idea that she doesn't have a solid temperament. She's friendly, behaves beautifully, and is a joy to be around. Her trainer adores her, and has told me how lucky I am to have such a great dog. I agree, completely.

    Teenie's problems run so deep that I feel like it may come down to euthanasia for behavior. I cannot train her. It is beyond me, and everyone else who has tried. She wears a diaper, in the house. I'm ok with that. She hates kids. I'm ok with that, until she  makes contact with one. If she ever does, it'll be my fault, but she'll likely die for it. That's how it works around here. She hates men, until they earn her trust, and she's scared of everyone. She's bitch aggressive. Severely. If she ends up being killed by another dog, that again will be my fault. Her problems were caused by humans. I hate it with all that I am, and I tell her all the time that I wish I could make her ok. She's not ok, and she won't ever be normal. That's ok with me. Until she's unhappy or hurts somebody, she gets to stay here, and have her little pen and her dog bed (those things make her HAPPY!) and her fresh food (HAPPYHAPPY!) and her diapers.

    After writing that book, I will say that I'm all for euthanasia. It's a much more kind option than allowing a tortured dog to continue to be tortured, and I believe it's more kind than allowing a dog to languish in a shelter. I don't think every dog deserves to die (like PETA crazies), but we don't live on Gum Drop Lane.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks for an outstanding post, Jennie_c_d. Your posts are always very insightful.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: nfowler

    Thanks for an outstanding post, Jennie_c_d. Your posts are always very insightful.

     
    I agree with Nfowler and my position would be to support you should it ever come to it.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: DPU

      You (not specifically you) describe your dog situation on the internet and all of a sudden someone says PTS because the dog pulls and it will never be fixed but managed and that is a factor in quality of life for te dog.  Do you think that is ok or should such opinions be silent.

     
    DPU, I don't think anybody should ever be made to feel  like they need to keep  their opinions silent because someone else might not agree with them. Everyone is free to speak their opinions, and everyone else is free to take those opinions to heart or to ignore them.
     
    Joyce