Illusion Collar

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

So, why is it that none of my students have finicky eaters, nor do I?  Our dogs get all kinds of wonderful stuff when training.  Everything from tripe to roast beef.  Dogs can learn contextually that when they are "doing that training thing" and learning a new behavior, the treats are delectable.  But, no one goes around carrying dripping meat on them when they are training in less distracting circumstances, and if they understand the concept of a little goes a long way, the dogs are neither full, nor fat.  And, they learn to eat dinner when it is offered because if they don't, dinner disappears till tomorrw.  Most dogs are not going to starve themselves - they "get it" pretty quickly.  Of course, some dogs are not being given an adequate diet.  If you still feed supermarket food, I wouldn't blame them for being picky. 

 
So the basis of all your training is deprivation.  Such a negative sounding word.  Sounds like a roller coaster for the dog of being deprived and then being satisfied.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

What are the five things that your dogs like better than anything else?  That is the reward that they should get for walking nicely.  IMO, it sucks to yank on an Aussie's neck.  They are so easy to train and so biddable, why would you have to?

I don't know if you have this experience or not, but I noticed with a lot of dogs that come to my house catching or going after flies are highly prized.  Chasing flies is predictable and may be in the top five or may be even number one.  So, if I am on a walk and a fly happens by, I get a pull.  Are you suggesting that I train flies in order to train my dog not to pull?  My point is that when taking a dog for the walk there are so many things in the environment that can make a dog react that I can never place in a controlled environment.  I don't see defining the reward as key.  The dog will not pull only when the dog is paying attention to me or the dog considers me before reacting. 

Actually, if my dog did not see anything else as more rewarding than flycatching, I would use it, difficult as that would be.  It would make a great way to reinforce "leave it" in a more distracting environment than the living room, which is usually where I begin the "leave it" training.
The likelihood, however, is that your dog sees flycatching as more rewarding than paying attention to you because you are not all that exciting.  I don't mean that as an attack, so please don't take it that way.  But, to be honest, I encourage people to get interesting so that their dogs are wondering "where's the party - I'm thinking it's with the human".    The best way to have a dog stay with you is to make it interesting for him to do that.  Too many people walk quietly along simply wanting the dog to obey.  They don't actually engage with the dog!  And, if you are using food in training, it helps to vary it.  My dogs never know if it's a Cheerio, some string cheese, peanut butter, or a liver treat that's coming, or where it might be coming from (could be top of the fridge, a fence post that I baited an hour ago before our walk, or my back pocket).
Since you are always putting up walls, rather than trying the method in its correct application, you will never succeed at it.  Instead of trying to come up with ever more reasons why it won't work, why don't you do what ron did and try it - I'm sure he'd be willing to coach you, since you think I'm full of cow poop.

Not trying to slam at all, just trying to determine whether to accept or dismiss your thinking because your posts are sometimes based on having experience with one dog and one cat. For future reference do you accept the the learning theory axiom?

 
I have yet to find the "axiom" you mention.
 
And we should probably start another thread.
 

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

So, why is it that none of my students have finicky eaters, nor do I?  Our dogs get all kinds of wonderful stuff when training.  Everything from tripe to roast beef.  Dogs can learn contextually that when they are "doing that training thing" and learning a new behavior, the treats are delectable.  But, no one goes around carrying dripping meat on them when they are training in less distracting circumstances, and if they understand the concept of a little goes a long way, the dogs are neither full, nor fat.  And, they learn to eat dinner when it is offered because if they don't, dinner disappears till tomorrw.  Most dogs are not going to starve themselves - they "get it" pretty quickly.  Of course, some dogs are not being given an adequate diet.  If you still feed supermarket food, I wouldn't blame them for being picky. 

So the basis of all your training is deprivation.  Such a negative sounding word.  Sounds like a roller coaster for the dog of being deprived and then being satisfied.

That's crap and you know it.  [sm=banghead002.gif] You are just trying to be argumentative here, and deride me, rather than exploring issues, so this thread is now over for me.
Suffice to say that overindulging dogs by changing their food every time they turn their nose up at one thing is what makes them picky, and then you don't really know when your dog is truly off its feed.  That can be dangerous - what would then tell you that it's time to call the vet???  You might ignore something as serious as kidney failure if you don't know the difference between "picky" and "inappetance".   That is the reason for taking the time to let the dog know that it is important to "clean his plate" when the meal is offered.  Not much different than some parents require of their kids - eat your vegetables, and have a nice day.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

That's crap and you know it.  [sm=banghead002.gif] You are just trying to be argumentative here, and deride me, rather than exploring issues, so this thread is now over for me.

 
Not at all, we are just discussing things.  I always approach behavior changes and training in dog by first understanding the cause and the needs the dog is attempting to satisfying.  The pulling has me baffled as what need the dog is satisfying and why is it so highly valued.  Before I can do training, I need to understand this first. 
 
In training if I use food as a reward I want to have some assurance that stopping the reward will not cause the dog to go back to the basic survival need....as you suggested would happen.  Plus I don't understand why you do not see that any reward and even "making me more interesting" is fleeing in time and will be substituted for something else that maybe I am not aware of. 

So, why is it that none of my students have finicky eaters, nor do I? Our dogs get all kinds of wonderful stuff when training. Everything from tripe to roast beef. Dogs can learn contextually that when they are "doing that training thing" and learning a new behavior, the treats are delectable. But, no one goes around carrying dripping meat on them when they are training in less distracting circumstances, and if they understand the concept of a little goes a long way, the dogs are neither full, nor fat. And, they learn to eat dinner when it is offered because if they don't, dinner disappears till tomorrw. Most dogs are not going to starve themselves - they "get it" pretty quickly. Of course, some dogs are not being given an adequate diet. If you still feed supermarket food, I wouldn't blame them for being picky.

 
 
Yes, most dogs do get it, but there are a lot of them that don't.........I can't see having to bribe my dog each time I want a certain behavior, and I do feed good kibble with meat, but one of my dogs is a picky eater and will eat the meat out of the bowl and leave the rest at times......it has been mentioned on this board that treats get handed out for anything and everything, including getting a dog to go outside, sorry that is over the top for me, if I handed out treats like that the above mentioned dog would probably ignore his regular kibble even more.

In training if I use food as a reward I want to have some assurance that stopping the reward will not cause the dog to go back to the basic survival need

 
I have started a thread in the methods section so that we can all learn more about clicker training, learning theory, it's place in operant conditioning.
 

I can't see having to bribe my dog each time I want a certain behavior

 
For the lurkers and for clarification here--
 
Rewards are only used for training, not for a lifetime. I can't imagine how fat my dogs would be if this were not the case! []
 
So many times on these threads I see confusion that surrounds the idea of "training." Many people who don't care for food rewards seem to connect that to a lifetime of working with the dog--as in, I'll be giving treats for a Sit for the rest of my dog's life.
 
That's not at all what is meant by "reward" here. It's on a limited-time basis only--just long enough to get the dog in the habit of sitting when I give a signal, or preferably, the sit command.
 
FWIW, though I don't want to get entangled in this messy discussion, I spent a couple of months training my male terrier (very bent on squirrels) to do decent loose leash walking with the Halti and with rewards and with the clicker. No, it wasn't easy, but I had used the choke chain for about 6 months and wasn't getting anywhere on that, either. Until then, I'd only used choke chains and corrections and yes, it's worked for me on all 3 dogs I've used it on--though it took a couple of years for me to reach decent success. 
 
I wanted to switch to a completely different method of training anyway and after about a month, I was able to see  rogress and I lessened up the treats and now I only use them intermittedly.
 
I'm not sure I would have stuck with it had I been forced to walk with the clicker, the treats, the Halti, and the perfect timing for the rest of his life! I'm happy to say that we're much improved--though not perfect--and I can do loose leash walking about 90% of hte time. (BTW, as a starter clicker, corrections are easier to manage because all I have in my hands is the leash, whereas with this other method, I felt like I didn't have enough hands and that was frustrating.)

The pulling has me baffled as what need the dog is satisfying and why is it so highly valued. Before I can do training, I need to understand this first.

If you would simply go and take a basic clicker training class, you would not even have to be concerned.  Dogs pull because they get to go where they want to - it really is as simple as that.  And, if you even let them go where they want one time, you are intermittently reinforcing the pulling.  That's why it's such a hard behavior to stop using conventional means.  When I have a dog whose owner wants it to stop pulling, the first thing I do is remove the leash (of course, we are working in a fenced or safe indoor area for this).  And, I make them get the dog's attention using verbal, physical (as in dancing around, if need be) or luring.  Then, they run away.  Dog catches up, that's when he gets a reward.  The dog thinks "aha, all good things happen next to the human's left leg".

I can't see having to bribe my dog each time I want a certain behavior

And as long as you fail to understand the difference between bribing and rewarding, you won't understand the training method at all... Your comments tell me you still don't get it.  Please see ron's new thread - maybe the light will go on for you over there.

if I handed out treats like that the above mentioned dog would probably ignore his regular kibble even more

The other possibility is that your dog would think you were the coolest thing since sliced bread!  Have you even considered that the food you are feeding may be to blame?  Some dogs just don't do well on certain ingredients.  There's even one person who thinks that dogs should eat the protein source that would be native to the area in which the breed was developed.  So, for sled dogs in the arctic - perhaps a fish based diet.  Who knows?  All I know is that one thing has little to do with another.  Even my students who have so-called picky dogs have been able to train basic behaviors this way.  And, as has been pointed out, the heavy feeding occurs just until the dog recognizes what the cue word means, then is tapered off.

You are all so quick to suppose what would happen.  Why not just try it (and by that I mean go to a clicker trainer and learn in class, not by TV, books, etc.).  Or, if you are going to do it on your own, at least take the same leap of faith that ron did before you keep arguing the same sorry points.  There are people like me, Kim MacMillan, nfowler, houndlove, and mudpuppy who are more than willing to assist you if you would just get off this schtick and try it.  After all, we were where you are once.  We have found something that works infinitely better, and we have wonderful relationships with our dogs because of it.  Who knows, the great relationships you think you have now could get even better....[8D]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

]



You are all so quick to suppose what would happen.  Why not just try it (and by that I mean go to a clicker trainer and learn in class, not by TV, books, etc.). 

Using treats in training is not specific to clicker training. Most trainers use treats even if they are not involved in using the clicker. Most trainers desire the dog to be attentive to the handler and that the handler be enthusiastic with the dog. Are you saying that it is the clicker specifically that is the magical device or is it the method of rewarding behavior with food (or other things the dog desires)?

Yes, most dogs do get it, but there are a lot of them that don't.........I can't see having to bribe my dog each time I want a certain behavior, and I do feed good kibble with meat, but one of my dogs is a picky eater and will eat the meat out of the bowl and leave the rest at times......it has been mentioned on this board that treats get handed out for anything and everything, including getting a dog to go outside, sorry that is over the top for me, if I handed out treats like that the above mentioned dog would probably ignore his regular kibble even more.

Kenya is terribly picky and I also suspect part of her not eating comes from her nerves.  However I have not noticed that giving her more treats makes her less likely to eat her kibble.  I've been giving her a lot more treats lately b/c we are working on some things I want to have ready before she starts her next training class, and lately she has been trying her kibble without any toppers.  If I give her too many treats in one day, I cut back on the kibble.  Since she is picky, I can't use her kibble as treats like a lot of people do.  I take each treat and cut it into twelve pieces.  So in a 20 minute training sessions she only gets about 4 treats.  In class it's far less b/c the pace is a lot slower and they are trying new things so the dog isn't always being rewarded if they aren't offering the right behavior.  If anything, the opposite has been true - she's eating better b/c the training makes her more hungry and it has multiplied her confidence ten fold so she's not nervous about eating around other animals and people.  I was worried about using lots of treats, but she's gotten sooooooo much better about everything (fear is gone, tail is high and wagging, she's running around the house and yard, she eats her food, she goes up to strangers and licks them) and the pickiness certainly has not gotten worse.

The clicker is handy, no doubt about it. It definately is a step up from more traditional lure/reward training because it makes the training process about a million times more clear and consistent for the dog. Though of course by "clicker training" most people (me included) mean "marker training" so you don't have to use a clicker--but a clear consistent marker that the dog understands really makes training new behaviors easier. Zoo keepers use whistles typically with marine mammals (easier to hear underwater). People with sound-sensitive dogs use snapple caps. People who are clumsy with holding on to the clicker use marker words (after practicing saying the word in a consistent way). The usefulness of the clicker has nothing whatsoever with this silly bribe/reward debate business and everything to do with marking the exact moment of the correct behavior clearly so the dog knows why he's being rewarded. Once the dog completley understands that, the clicker goes away, it's no longer necessary.

Yesterday Marlowe and I worked on some training in the park and the only time I got the clicker out was to teach a new "come right" behavior so that when he responds to "come" he comes over to my right side and turns to face front. All the sits and downs and stays and comes were done sans clicker and much of the time sans food reward beause he already knows those and we were just practicing in a new and different (and very distracting) location.

Having a very food motivated dog as I do, training is easy as pie. I don't know why people keep thinking that I should make things more difficult for him and for me by eschewing his greatest motivator. It's like some moral objection that I just don't get. Correctly using a marker and food rewards and then fading both marker and food makes training Marlowe, a traditionally "stubborn and difficult to train" breed, easy peasey to train, even for a dunce with poor timing such as myself.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

The Gentle Leader does not hurt dogs necks if used properly, which is why, when I recommend it to my own clients, I demonstrate its proper use.  The collar comes with instructions and a video.  I can't do anything about those who take advice from TV shows, or use training devices without reading the instructions.

Wow i bet thats what CM thinks about his methods and still there are people that dont like him for the exactly same reasons, how funny []

I can't see having to bribe my dog each time I want a certain behavior

And as long as you fail to understand the difference between bribing and rewarding, you won't understand the training method at all... Your comments tell me you still don't get it. Please see ron's new thread - maybe the light will go on for you over there.

You know, this is really getting to be something else....you keep throwing ron's training in our face( no offense ron[]) as gospel, what exactly is it that his dog does and mine don't? I can make mine sit, lay, roll on their side with hand motion and pointing, no verbal commands given......I can take my dogs for a walk off leash, that includes a Husky/Mal mix and a Husky /Chow mix.....and many other things, when I call them , here they come...., what exactly am I not accomplishing, is it that these things were accomplished by just having fun with the dogs and forming a close bond?

You can get a bear to heel too by hanging a steak around your neck[]

ORIGINAL: snownose

I can't see having to bribe my dog each time I want a certain behavior

And as long as you fail to understand the difference between bribing and rewarding, you won't understand the training method at all... Your comments tell me you still don't get it. Please see ron's new thread - maybe the light will go on for you over there.

You know, this is really getting to be something else....you keep throwing ron's training in our face( no offense ron[]) as gospel, what exactly is it that his dog does and mine don't? I can make mine sit, lay, roll on their side with hand motion and pointing, no verbal commands given......I can take my dogs for a walk off leash, that includes a Husky/Mal mix and a Husky /Chow mix.....and many other things, when I call them , here they come....and many other good things, what exactly am I not accomplishing, is it that these things were accoplished by just having fun with the dogs and forming a close bond?

You can get a bear to heel too by hanging a steak around your neck[]

 
snownose
 
 Do you clicker train? If not then that is most likely your deficiency.
 
  I love the bear comment!!!