Illusion Collar

I think maybe DPU has used one--you might want to PM him.

It's really just a slip collar with a device that holds it high on the dog's neck so you don't have to readjust it to issue the correction.  Fine for people who like to correct their dogs.  Me, I prefer to teach them what to do, and let the bad habits extinguish for lack of any reward associated with them.  If you are a skilled leash handler in traditional methods, you really don't need it.  And if you teach with lure/reward or clicker, it's like mammaries on a bull.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

If you are a skilled leash handler in traditional methods, you really don't need it. 

I would say if you are a skilled leash handler in ANY method, you dont really need it, is more about you than the leash you use, if you know what you are doing you could even use a shoe lace, your dog would not pull you at all and you would be grabbing the shoe lace with only 2 fingers []

ORIGINAL: espencer

I would say if you are a skilled leash handler in ANY method, you dont really need it, is more about you than the leash you use, if you know what you are doing you could even use a shoe lace, your dog would not pull you at all and you would be grabbing the shoe lace with only 2 fingers []

In front of the entire forum, please explain in detail exactly how you would accomplish this when dog does not respond to methods because the distraction is greater than any force of correction or a piece of roast beef dripping with juice. 

The Illusion collar lives up to its claim in controlling a dog from pulling.  It is not a training tool but is a control tool.. 

In front of the entire forum, please explain in detail exactly how you would accomplish this when dog does not respond to methods because the distraction is greater than any force of correction or a piece of roast beef dripping with juice.

Well, for one thing, you can use the "distraction" that the dog wants as the reward for the behavior you want to elicit!  Creative trainers often use reinforcers that are not food. 
I have a dog for whom the f-r-i-s-b-e-e is the center of the universe.  But, if she wants the thing, she needs to "wait" or "lie down" first.  Otherwise, the frisbee disappears.  Given the choice between dripping roast beef and the frisbee, she still fixates on the frisbee, so that's what I use.  The definition of a reward is not "dripping roast beef".  The definition of a reward (reinforcer) is "something that the dog is willing to work for".  Once you get the distinction and get creative, training is a lot easier. 

You are assuming that the handler knows what the distraction or the attention-getter is and it is constant and is the strongest and there is only one.  Therefore, then the handler can control the environment.  Making it simple, given that the handler knows two (keep in mind it may be a hundred) and they are always present, doesn't the value of the reinforcer decrease with the time the dog has it and then won't the dog switch?   

spiritdogs,
               haven't you also given two thumbs up for the gentle leader, a walking tool that can really hurt some dogs necks?

DPU
 
 Have you used the collar? I am interested in hearing from those who have used it and what they think. I understand that the subject of CM may come up, and the subject of right versus wrong may come up but really all I wanted to discuss was the collar. I am suprised that I have never seen one in use seeing as how CM is so popular and the ad runs after every show. I also only recall seeing him use it once.I have no plans to get one, as I have no need of one I am just curious but not curious enough to purchase one without need.
 
 Also if everyone could discuss the merits or flaws of the collar it would be nice, my assumption is one needs to use it to really do that although I have no objections to you speaking about why you think it might be affective or why you think it might be a tool from the devil's toolbox.
 
 I also cannot help but wonder if there is perhaps hundreds of lurkers who may have used the collar but are terrified to post that information.

I considered it for our shelter dogs.  We are required to use slip-style collars, regardless of what tools and methods we prefer, and since we have mostly pit bulls and pit mixes, when the slip collars move down to their shoulders all they do is pull harder.  My understanding is that the I-collar is just a slip collar with a device that keeps it in place in the correct spot on the neck.  I never got one b/c they are too expensive, seemed too complicated to continuously fit, and I think are one-sided (dog HAS to be on the left). 

The Illusion collar lives up to its claim in controlling a dog from pulling.  It is not a training tool but is a control tool..

I agree that it helps control from pulling, but I disagree that it is not a training tool.  The CM website calls it a training tool.  Also, from the episodes where I've seen him use it, I did not get the vibe that he intended for it to always be used to control the dog.  I don't always agree with his methods, but I do think that he intends to train the dog so that the owner doesn't use an I-collar for life.  There's no reason why ANY dog can't be trained not to pull and lunge.

Hi Driego,
 
Here is the discussion thread on the Illusion Collar.  Even in that thread, members talk about the collar but don't have one, never used, never saw it close up. 
 
I have a foster hound dog named Marvin.  He has been through SA management, socialization, Clicker Training and I started working sport with him.  His issue is a very short attention span.  He is very obedient but once released, he is off in all direction.  His COME is proofed and his "center of universe" is me which is why his COME is strong. 
 
Marvin attends foster dog showings and Petsmart/Petco with a different handler. Handlers are ladies and in their 60's.   Marvin pulls as the group mills.  I have purchased most harness and nopull harness/collars and the last one was the Illusion Collar.  The collar is just as Spiritdogs described, a slip collar with braces that keeps the slip high on the neck.
 
It works!  Marvin immediately got use to it and knew his boundaries.  He also became sensitive to the touch of the collar and knew exactly when the handler would move or start walking.  Vary rarely did I see the slip tightening and a correction applied.  Marvin knows this collar and once off and replaced with another, he does the pulling.  That is why I say it is not a training collar.
 
At first the only problem I saw was a flaw in the clasp on the bracers.  They open from top and Marvin can open the clasps if he scratches his neck. 
 
Here's the discussion thread and one of my other dogs modeling the collar.
 
[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=284617&mpage=1]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=284617&mpage=1[/link]
 

I see an increased potential for injury using such a collar.  On cm's website it both says the collar sits above the major muscles in the dog's neck and at the bottom that it should not be used with dogs that have breathing problems.  That reinforces what I felt when looking at and reading about it.  You can more easily "choke" the dog and cause damage to the throat if your pulling at the top of the neck than the base.  It might be fine if you work up to using it slowly starting with a low distraction setting so that the dog never attempts to bolt and hits the end of the leash but I think there's a fairly high risk of injury for dogs that already pull alot or that bolt if you aren't really careful.  Personally I don't see the increased risk of injury to be worth the possible increased control but then despite being originally taught for about 8years to always train with choke and pinch collars I even avoid full slip collars that sit normally.  I do have a new semi slip on Zami but I don't use it for correction only to keep her from backing out of her collar since her head is no wider than her neck.  If your interested in it I would try a basic slip collar(less than $10) first and see what you think.  I also would not suggest using it at all without a professional to help if you are not experienced with using similar collars.

Thanks DPU I appreciate the information.
   It is funny to read that post and see how the thread went off in the same manner as most threads on this forum that I have participated in.

Sham it is possible to injure when using any collar very high up on the neck. That is one of the things that make me worry when watching CM as he always tells people to have the collar high on the neck, but also states that he works with whatever equipment the owner uses. I hate the thought of just anyone using a choke chain or pinch that high on the neck if they are using it with heavy hands.

The Illusion is probably not a collar to leave on a dog.

That collar looks less harmful than some of the other walking tools...LIKE  the GENTLE LEADER.........

Thats the thing, at these foster dog showing, all the handlers use the choker collar and the dogs will pull to try and sniff other dogs or get petted by passerbyers.  Seeing these dogs being choked made me go on the quest for a nopull device.  Marvin is the perfect tester and the only one that passed was the Illusion collar. 

Remember I said 60 year old ladies are involved and they can't handle a 70 pound hound that decides to pull.  There is no more pulling.  There was no transition for the dog to get use it, Marvin got it immediately.  And for sure, no behaviorist or trainer were involved. 

Again, members can express any opinion they want but the only creditable ones are those that actually have and use it.  []