Illusion Collar

ORIGINAL: snownose

That collar looks less harmful than some of the other walking tools...LIKE  the GENTLE LEADER.........

The Gentle Leader failed miserable at the showings.  Not because of its function but because no one would come near us because they thought it was a muzzle on the dogs.  Didn't really have a chance to test but with the little time I used it, I saw you can really snap the head if the dog pulled all of sudden. 

Espencer and Spiritdogs, there are outstanding statements directed at you two that would help many understand the dog psychology of why a dog pulls.
 
Espencer, if you could provide the stick figure illustrations that gave you so much confidence then at least the right "energy" will be coming from the handler and that would be a good start even if the handler would still not know what they are doing.

ORIGINAL: snownose

That collar looks less harmful than some of the other walking tools...LIKE  the GENTLE LEADER.........

 
 I agree and I cannot strand the Gentle Leader. I have not used it myself but I have never seen a happy dog using one(maybe there are some out there). I know my dogs well enough to know they would hate wearing one.
 
DPU
 
 I may try one of these for someone I know. An elderly lady with an American Bulldog. Currently using a pinch collar.

ORIGINAL: snownose

spiritdogs,
              haven't you also given two thumbs up for the gentle leader, a walking tool that can really hurt some dogs necks?

The Gentle Leader does not hurt dogs necks if used properly, which is why, when I recommend it to my own clients, I demonstrate its proper use.  The collar comes with instructions and a video.  I can't do anything about those who take advice from TV shows, or use training devices without reading the instructions.

Espencer and Spiritdogs, there are outstanding statements directed at you two that would help many understand the dog psychology of why a dog pulls.

There is only one reason dogs pull on leash - they get where they want to go.  Dogs do what works for them, not us.  The faster you get that into your head, the better trainer you will be.  Humans are such control freaks, but the one thing they often fail to control is the real reinforcer that the dog is after - big mistake, and one which leads to endless frustration of trying to fit the square canine into the round human hole.
If someone has no clue what the dog wants, that isn't my fault - that just means the person is not a good observer of his own dog.  And, no one ever said it is easy to use, or create situations that mimic, what the dog wants.  But, one of the first things I do on the first night of class is to ask my students to test different foods, test toys, observe the dog, and make me a list of the DOG's favorite five things in the order in which he seems to like them. 
When you have a mindset that says force the dog, you will never allow the dog to choose the appropriate behavior because he's getting what HE wants for it.  Not my fault, and not my problem.  My dogs do the things that I think are important, and if yours don't, you need to change your approach.  By the way, I don't have any "rules" for appropriate behavior in dogs, other than that my dogs should not be a nuisance to others.  I do not require them to walk behind me.  I do require them to "sit" and "wait" when asked, and I require them to "leave it" and not touch a forbidden object.  I require, before they get any off leash time, that they be offering a 100% reliable recall for approximately 18 months on a long line.  My dogs know that "come" isn't optional.  But, I have not had to say "no", and I have never used a choke, a prong, an illusion on them. 

DPU, I never worry about whether anyone thinks the GL is a muzzle - the minute I see that "look" on their faces, I simply take the time to explain what it is. (The company makes a button that says "No, it's not a muzzle.")  But, if it bothers you, make a big sign and show them it's not a muzzle, or put the dog in an Easy Walk.  People are often curious about those, too, but they seem to like the idea.

You are assuming that the handler knows what the distraction or the attention-getter is and it is constant and is the strongest and there is only one. Therefore, then the handler can control the environment. Making it simple, given that the handler knows two (keep in mind it may be a hundred) and they are always present, doesn't the value of the reinforcer decrease with the time the dog has it and then won't the dog switch?

 
No. The value of the reinforcer does not decrease. IMLE (in my limited experience), I am lucky, I suppose. My dog goes for the dripping roast beef. I also think the handler should be aware of the dog's reinforcers. I am also going to consider dog and handler. I will agree that the collar described is a control device and not a training device. And it controls by correction or simply as a physical control. As pointed out before, remove the collar and go back to a standard flat collar and the dog resumes pulling. So, the dog didn't learn anything or alter it's behavior. But the use of any collar must accompany some training, IMO. Example, using a control system, such as prong, halti, Easy Walk, Gentle Leader, even the Illusion, should be used in conjunction with training to change how the dog walks. OTOH, in some cases, it might make management easier, such as using a muzzle in certain circumstances. I think it's also worth noting that a true problem that is not solved by +R approach is not necessarily going to be solved by a corrective approach, either.
 
You are right, in that there are some dogs for whom no reward at the time is going to settle them down. And a collar such as Illusion is really just managing the situation. And if the treats aren't going to work, neither is popping the dog. In such cases, limited exposure is better for the dog, in order to create a more stable environment. One could then wonder why such a dog is brought into public, since the experience is only reinforcing an unwanted behavior. And, one could also wonder, if nothing has worked thanks to too much abuse, ailments, genetic mishap, whatever, then what is the most humane thing for the dog? Yes, I dare bring that up.

ORIGINAL: ron2

  And, one could also wonder, if nothing has worked thanks to too much abuse, ailments, genetic mishap, whatever, then what is the most humane thing for the dog? Yes, I dare bring that up.

 
 I am curious, are you suggesting that if genetic mishap, ailments , or whatever prevent a dog from ever truly learning to not pull on a leash, that we should PTS? That seems rather harsh coming from you Ron. I agree that there are other behaviour problems that because of circumstances may be difficult if not impossible to ever overcome but would think that PTS is only the best option if these circumstances lead the dog to be a danger to others.

No. The value of the reinforcer does not decrease. IMLE (in my limited experience), I am lucky, I suppose.

 
Does for mine.  A treat is only interesting for a few rewards and then it is ignored.  Even if it's raw meat or other good food items.  Toys are only good for about 1 game or throw and then they are no longer interesting.  We rotate items alot because the more I use something the less desireable it becomes.

ORIGINAL: DPU

In front of the entire forum, please explain in detail exactly how you would accomplish this when dog does not respond to methods because the distraction is greater than any force of correction or a piece of roast beef dripping with juice. 
 

Haha ok [] "in front of the entire forum" i give you this link []:

http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=296612&mpage=2&key=

I'm sure you remember it since you participated here AND you asked the same question [8D]

I am curious, are you suggesting that if genetic mishap, ailments , or whatever prevent a dog from ever truly learning to not pull on a leash, that we should PTS? That seems rather harsh coming from you Ron.

 
Not for leashing pulling, by itself, as a behavior. But sometimes is the case where hypothetical scenarios are suggested where this or that is not working and I was generalizing in advance. And what starts out as leash pulling balloons into another debate on solutions, etc. I suppose I jumped the gun. But I believed in euth before I got into clicker training and I still do. And, generalized hypothetical situations are of limited value. A Shih Tzu straining and pulling presents different problems than a Neapolitan Mastiff.
 
I think, most times, leash pulling is solvable. I solved it but you won't want to hear about that.[]
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

DPU
You are assuming that the handler knows what the distraction or the attention-getter is and it is constant and is the strongest and there is only one. Therefore, then the handler can control the environment. Making it simple, given that the handler knows two (keep in mind it may be a hundred) and they are always present, doesn't the value of the reinforcer decrease with the time the dog has it and then won't the dog switch?

No. The value of the reinforcer does not decrease. IMLE (in my limited experience), I am lucky, I suppose.

 
IIBMAMA (it is becoming more and more apparent).  OMG (oh my god), you do not accept the axiom in learning theory that depreviation increases learning and satiation decreases learning.  Even I, JQP (John Q Public) understand that this core in Clicker Training. 

OMG (oh my god), you do not accept the axiom in learning theory that depreviation increases learning and satiation decreases learning. Even I, JQP (John Q Public) understand that this core in Clicker Training.

 
I think you were trying to slam me. That's okay. Re-read my sentence. The part about in my limited experience and that I am lucky. I just haven't found the brick wall yet where the treat holds no value. But then, I keep training sessions short and fun. Now, I could say something like "anyone knows that" but, for me, that would be immature.[]

ORIGINAL: espencer

Haha ok [] "in front of the entire forum" i give you this link []:

Please Espenser, don't create a distraction.  Show the forum the stick figure illustration that gives you the knowledge to confidently instruct members.  In the thread you referenced, both Chewbecca and I listened, accepted, applied, and practiced.  I see Chewbecca still posting about walking and DA issues and I continue to use the Illusion Collar at the dog showings.  I don't accept the reason that Chewbecca and I don't know what we are doing.  Your technique works with stick figures but does not take into consideration the many variables of the real world.  Show us the stick figure illustration so we improve your thinking.

Respond to my original post given the 2 variables I specify.  The entire forum awaits.

Gentlemen, I fail to see how calling each other out is addressing the OP's question about the illusion collar:

ORIGINAL: dgriego
I am curious and keep meaning to post this topic and I always forget. After each showing of the DW they advertise the collar called the "illusion collar". I am curious if anyone has used this collar and what they think about it.
Since DW is very popular and many people watch it I find it unusual that I never see dogs wearing this collar, and cannot recall ever seeing a discussion on the functionality of this collar.

the functionality of this collar

The way I see it, it functions by allowing the handler to make leash corrections with the slip/choke collar around the most sensitive part of the neck.  I can't see how it functions any differently than any other choke or slip collar, it just saves the hassle of having to keep placing it higher on the neck and making sure it's not slipping down.