Illusion Collar

ORIGINAL: Liesje

The way I see it, it functions by allowing the handler to make leash corrections with the slip/choke collar around the most sensitive part of the neck.  I can't see how it functions any differently than any other choke or slip collar, it just saves the hassle of having to keep placing it higher on the neck and making sure it's not slipping down.

 
I see the timing and applied consistently taken out of the handlers hands. 
 

I see the timing and applied consistently taken out of the handlers hands.

How so?  I don't see how any tool or method can work if it's not timed correctly and used consistently.  One of the main reasons I think CM has so much success with his methods is that he has impeccable timing and consistency.

i borrowed this collar from a friend to try out a while back when i was first training our wild horse dog not to yank my arms out of their socket.

like others said, it is just a slip collar with a fitting that insures that the slip collar ride high on the neck.

at the time, my dog, mandi was pretty wild and it was tedious to put the collar on her (get the buckles snapped and adjusted) and i think that may have been due to her long and thick neck hair getting sandwiched into the buckle. (seems like the buckles would be better for short haired dogs ??)

one the collar was set, it did not stop the dog from pulling right away and i had to make a lot of corrections. the lower buckle would sometimes become unbuckled (not sure the reason and no, i was not snapping THAT hard)

anyway, after a few goes at it, i just bought one of those collars with limited choke chain and ended up using a different technique to stop her from pulling. the $40 price tag seemed high.

she now walks at my side, slightly in front. i have yet to get her to follow me from behind unless she is really tired.... but i don't really care about that anyways. on leash free walks, i do require them to remain within about a 100 foot distance fore or aft...

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Gentlemen, I fail to see how calling each other out is addressing the OP's question about the illusion collar:

ORIGINAL: dgriego
I am curious and keep meaning to post this topic and I always forget. After each showing of the DW they advertise the collar called the "illusion collar". I am curious if anyone has used this collar and what they think about it.
Since DW is very popular and many people watch it I find it unusual that I never see dogs wearing this collar, and cannot recall ever seeing a discussion on the functionality of this collar.

 
I see the dialogue covering the OP comment that "it unusual that I never see dogs wearings this collar".  I see this going to the question of the need of the collar and and how others have viable alternatives.  The 'viable' part is then open for discussion as whether their training technique to control the dog is better than the control achieved by the collar. 
 
Is that OK?  Can we proceed along this line?  Plus I need to say why Ron2's opinion on PTS should be sent to Davey Jones Locker.

ORIGINAL: DPU

Please Espenser, don't create a distraction.  Show the forum the stick figure illustration that gives you the knowledge to confidently instruct members.  In the thread you referenced, both Chewbecca and I listened, accepted, applied, and practiced.  I see Chewbecca still posting about walking and DA issues and I continue to use the Illusion Collar at the dog showings.  I don't accept the reason that Chewbecca and I don't know what we are doing.  Your technique works with stick figures but does not take into consideration the many variables of the real world.  Show us the stick figure illustration so we improve your thinking.

Respond to my original post given the 2 variables I specify.  The entire forum awaits.

I'm sorry i never used stick figures to walk a dog properly, i used real dogs []

If you want i can PM you with tips according to what i saw on the videos you posted, you could also open a new thread about it or going and "rescue" the old one so the "entire forum" can also read [], thats to avoid getting off topic from here (i dont want to be writing a lot and have my post edited for being off topic) [8D]

on leash free walks, i do require them to remain within about a 100 foot distance fore or aft...

You mean you have Aussies and they don't do this automatically?? []

The other thing about the herders is that they have a real desire to weave and gather, thus not walk beside the handler.  Their genetic opinion is that there should be some cattle up there somewhere that you want them to herd or guard, not that they should be walking next to you like a gundog.
Anyway, the nice thing about Aussies is their work ethic.  So, if you can make the walking nicely at your side to feel like a job to them, they should really like that.
What are the five things that your dogs like better than anything else?  That is the reward that they should get for walking nicely.  IMO, it sucks to yank on an Aussie's neck.  They are so easy to train and so biddable, why would you have to?

The OP is okay with how the thread is proceeding. My intentions was to see if anyone was using the collar and what they thought of it. 

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Gentlemen, I fail to see how calling each other out is addressing the OP's question about the illusion collar:

ORIGINAL: dgriego
I am curious and keep meaning to post this topic and I always forget. After each showing of the DW they advertise the collar called the "illusion collar". I am curious if anyone has used this collar and what they think about it.
Since DW is very popular and many people watch it I find it unusual that I never see dogs wearing this collar, and cannot recall ever seeing a discussion on the functionality of this collar.

I see the dialogue covering the OP comment that "it unusual that I never see dogs wearings this collar".  I see this going to the question of the need of the collar and and how others have viable alternatives.  The 'viable' part is then open for discussion as whether their training technique to control the dog is better than the control achieved by the collar. 

Is that OK?  Can we proceed along this line?  Plus I need to say why Ron2's opinion on PTS should be sent to Davey Jones Locker.

 
as the OP I am okay with this, not sure if it is up to me, but if it is then proceed!

The Gentle Leader does not hurt dogs necks if used properly, which is why, when I recommend it to my own clients, I demonstrate its proper use. The collar comes with instructions and a video. I can't do anything about those who take advice from TV shows, or use training devices without reading the instructions.

 
 
This is rather cute....so, you are saying you are not responsible for the misuse of the gentle leader by some yahoos who ignore your instructions?
 
So, a basic blanket warning against the misuse of this device should be enough?

No. The value of the reinforcer does not decrease. IMLE (in my limited experience), I am lucky, I suppose. My dog goes for the dripping roast beef.

 
 
Woah......you must be going through a lot of roast beef and lunchmeat....[]

ORIGINAL: ron2

OMG (oh my god), you do not accept the axiom in learning theory that depreviation increases learning and satiation decreases learning. Even I, JQP (John Q Public) understand that this core in Clicker Training.

I think you were trying to slam me. That's okay. Re-read my sentence. The part about in my limited experience and that I am lucky. I just haven't found the brick wall yet where the treat holds no value. But then, I keep training sessions short and fun. Now, I could say something like "anyone knows that" but, for me, that would be immature.[]

Not trying to slam at all, just trying to determine whether to accept or dismiss your thinking because your posts are sometimes based on having experience with one dog and one cat.  For future reference do you accept the the learning theory axiom?

ORIGINAL: snownose

No. The value of the reinforcer does not decrease. IMLE (in my limited experience), I am lucky, I suppose. My dog goes for the dripping roast beef.

Woah......you must be going through a lot of roast beef and lunchmeat....[]

You know Snownose, what I have observed is that when I use these very tastey juice treats it spoils the dog normal diet during feeding time.  I have messed up the dog when it comes to changing the degree or intensity of the WANT.  The food that is good for the dog and normal is not good enough and the intense WANT for the roast beef may causes other behavior problems that is not obvious to the human..which may be the reason and need for the Illusion Collar.

You know Snownose, what I have observed is that when I use these very tastey juice treats it spoils the dog normal diet during feeding time. I have messed up the dog when it comes to changing the degree or intensity of the WANT. The food that is good for the dog and normal is not good enough and the intense WANT for the roast beef may causes other behavior problems that is not obvious to the human..which may be the reason and need for the Illusion Collar.

 
 
I can see that, in additon to creating a finicky eater.....[]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

What are the five things that your dogs like better than anything else?  That is the reward that they should get for walking nicely.  IMO, it sucks to yank on an Aussie's neck.  They are so easy to train and so biddable, why would you have to?

I don't know if you have this experience or not, but I noticed with a lot of dogs that come to my house catching or going after flies are highly prized.  Chasing flies is predictable and may be in the top five or may be even number one.  So, if I am on a walk and a fly happens by, I get a pull.  Are you suggesting that I train flies in order to train my dog not to pull?  My point is that when taking a dog for the walk there are so many things in the environment that can make a dog react that I can never place in a controlled environment.  I don't see defining the reward as key.  The dog will not pull only when the dog is paying attention to me or the dog considers me before reacting. 

I can see that, in additon to creating a finicky eater.....

So, why is it that none of my students have finicky eaters, nor do I?  Our dogs get all kinds of wonderful stuff when training.  Everything from tripe to roast beef.  Dogs can learn contextually that when they are "doing that training thing" and learning a new behavior, the treats are delectable.  But, no one goes around carrying dripping meat on them when they are training in less distracting circumstances, and if they understand the concept of a little goes a long way, the dogs are neither full, nor fat.  And, they learn to eat dinner when it is offered because if they don't, dinner disappears till tomorrw.  Most dogs are not going to starve themselves - they "get it" pretty quickly.  Of course, some dogs are not being given an adequate diet.  If you still feed supermarket food, I wouldn't blame them for being picky.