Why You Should NOT Alpha Roll a Dog

I wonder if the people who believe that dogs "alpha roll" each other are actually seeing the "rollee" flipping over on their back at the last second when they see the "roller" coming at them.

 
That's exactly what happens 99% of the time. I save 1% for any newer evidence. But the work of L. David Mech in particular, was to show that the alpha roll was not, indeed, an alpha roll on the part of the alpha wolf. Technically, if I may create a term, it should be a submission roll on the part of the beta or omega. A move of appeasement, akin to saying "Sir" or "Maam." I realize that's anthropromorphization, so some may have a problem with that but it does show the intent. Dogs are not wolves, Wayne's findings aside, but they do have some similarities. And alpha is not always the physically biggest. Duke, a JRT, was older and "boss" of Shadow for a while, even after Shadow grew to 4 times the size of Duke, who would never be capable of pinning Shadow.
 

sd: Because it really makes you look like you're compensating for your own shortcomings---and everybody watching is secretly rooting for the dog."

lc: if a person if worried about their self image when working with a dog (no matter what technique id being used), then that person's really better off working in something like the movie industry where self-image counts.

sd: Well, um, yes I DO care what my dogs think of me.

does this mean that all those (people is what i thought you implied) watching you are dogs?

and yes, a dog should think of any trainer as THE pack leader.

It has also been my experience that only people with very low self esteem seem to turn themselves into bullies or control freaks, which is what I think people are when they alpha roll dogs.

a survey was conducted nationwide to verify that ALL people who have ever alpha rolled a dog are bullies &/or control freaks with 100% of them having low self-esteem as a fundamental?

given a final assessment like this, Ceasar Millan has low self-esteem. it sure doesn't seem to show. he must really be putting on a good show in order to fake it so well.

[sm=rofl.gif]

A great many people with low self-esteem overcompensate so that no one will ever know.

this line of discussion was/is off topic - but because sd's reply to me was left unedited by the moderators, i felt that a reply was warranted (whether or not my reply gets edited out is up to the moderators)
 
so - is it a fair assessment to say that ALL people who have ever alpha rolled a dog for rehabilitaion purposes have low self esteem?
 
if so, please provide a reference. thanks.
 
 
back to topic - alpha roll - it's really up to a person's consciounce to decide whether it is morally right or wrong.... but in terms of absolutes, well, opinions will prevail on a forum such as this.

I've "alpha rolled". Used to be the professionals told you to start alpha rolling your pup regularly from a young age, to prevent the poor dog from ever mysteriously "seizing control" of your household. Ha. Like that would ever happen anyway. We were so clueless back then. Any situation where a dog was actually challenging you for dominance would be an incredibly dangerous time to try an alpha roll.
 
I'm wondering, how would it benefit YOU to let a professional "alpha roll" your dog for you?  the theory being that the dominant figure forces the dog to submit by rolling the submissive dog. So the professional is now dominant over your dog, but how does that affect your relationship with the dog?  clearly the theory is wrong. Alpha rolling does do something to a dog-- crushes its spirit. Learned helplessness. Which is why letting a professional alpha roll your dog will permanently affect your dog's behavior, and is simultaneously a really good reason to never let a professional alpha roll your dog.

MP, same with us. We were told to do it, almost as a prophylaxis against our dogs trying to take over our house. It wasn't a self-esteem thing, we were just doing what we thought was best based on what various "professionals" and "knowledgable dog people" had told us. But that kind of attitude--not just the alpha rolls but the whole dominance 'OMG my dogs will take over the house if I don't bully them constantly' paradigm--DID effect the relationship I had with my dogs, and not positively. It made me sort of be in a bit of a war with them--a war that neither of us wanted to fight but I kept pressing the issue with them. It created an antagonistic rather than a partnership relationship. These are dogs who never once showed any desire whatsoever to be anything other than lovely, docile, friendly dogs. But this idea that ALL dogs will try to be alpha if you present even the smallest chink in your "armour" makes it so every little thing they do, every mistake they make or habit they have, becomes evidence that they are trying to be "dominant" and therefor you, the owner, must put on these dominance displays to "put them in their place." The alpha rolling just seemed to be a symptom of that broader mindset.

Alpha rolling does do something to a dog-- crushes its spirit.

 
is this a 100% certainty?
 
i mean... abuse... day after day will crush a dogs spirit in record time
 
a once-or-twice-in-a-lifetime alpha roll used to correct an agressive dog will not (in most cases) crush its spirit
 
but if someone goes alpha rollie pollie with a dog every day - then yeah, that would certainly be abuse and could crush the dogs spirit.
 
 
a quote comes to mind here written by Castaneda - "Fright never injures anyone. What injures the spirit is having someone always on your back, beating you, telling you what to do and what not to do."

In short, I wouldn't alpha roll my dog because I don't know what the heck I am doing, I don't like physical struggle, and I don't want to get bitten...

I am not sure though that we are all on the same page as far as what we mean by an Alpha Roll. I do roll my dog when there is no conflict - to relax him. My dog sometimes gets very hyped up when we visit people's houses. When we're all tired, I call him by me, and hold him still by his side - not fighting his moves, just going along with him, like I have a sticky arm. I tell him our RELAX code word [8D] and slowly press, he sits down, then drops down and spaces out. It's pretty amazing actually. Our friends have asked me a few times - "chill him out", and this "roll" always works... There is no force and no struggle. He is free to take off - he just doesn't want do: he rolls his eyes, like "Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me".

I haven't yet seen dogs struggle to put each other down. I have seen my dog drop on the side for our friend's dog (who decided to rightfully discipline him). Jack dropped down, the old dog THEN held him there with his muzzle, and then let him go... No hurt feelings. Jack continued playing his marry game... he was just more cautious not to annoy the old dog.

A touch can have a million meanings, a "roll" can too... []

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

a quote comes to mind here written by Castaneda - "Fright never injures anyone. What injures the spirit is having someone always on your back, beating you, telling you what to do and what not to do."



Apparently the author of the above quote has never had to deal with a fear aggressive dog, or pretty much any horse.  It is amazing what one fearful experience can do to an animal.  If a training method instills fear then something--either the method itself or the person using it, is terribly wrong.

almost as a prophylaxis against our dogs trying to take over our house

 
And I think you get points for using the word "prohylaxis" in a conversation.
[]

I don't view the decision to alpha roll or not as a moral decision. In terms of absolutes, it does not achieve what many think it does and there is a better way. That is why I don't scruff anymore. It wasn't very effective, except in the moment, when I used it before and I have a better way of responding, now. Secondly, as often pointed out by Mud Puppy, a correction has to be stern or strong enough to be effective in the first few applications or it will not be effective. It will then become an irritant or a reward. For some dogs, a sharp, loud noise is an effective correction. Applied once, they stop the behavior, at least at that moment. But you might have to apply that correction in several different scenarios before they generalize the cessation of that behavior. Dogs do what works. If it's rewarding, they do it, unless something else is even more rewarding. The most rewarding behaviors get repeated. Behaviors that don't reward tend to extinguish.
 

we are speaking of dominant/agressive dogs, are we not?

certainly not fear/aggressive dogs - which nobody should EVER go alpha roll on.


back to the idea that fear kills spirit:

gazelles are hunted by tigers and the presense of a lion instills fear in the pack of gazelles that flee for thier lives. this happens alot - but is their spirit (life energy) broken?

now what if you captured a gazelle, put in a cage, and rattle the cage every day, every hour - that may very well break the animals spirit.

we are speaking of dominant/agressive dogs, are we not?

certainly not fear/aggressive dogs - which nobody should EVER go alpha roll on.

 
Although I think my younger lab, Sassy, has both types of aggression at times, I think her aggression towards our older lab is more of a dominant aggression.  I'm not proud of it, but I did alpha roll her one time. She'd been bullying Buffy every chance she could and they'd had some pretty serious fights.  One evening Sassy just barged her way thru me to Buffy and a nasty fight broke out. When we broke them apart and I was holding Sassy back, I just sort of lost my wits and flipped her on her side and had my face within inches of her and thru clinched teeth said "you're not going to keep beating up on Buffy".  I had so much adrenaline running thru me I was shaking. Fortunately for me, Sassy was completely submissive (extremely unusual for her) and didn't move a muscle until I released her.  I don't think what I did served any useful purpose at all, and I'm just really thankful that she didn't take a big chunk out of my face [8|]

have there been any fights since that time?

does sassy disrespect you by barging through?

you'll need to claim leadership - that means being calm and trying not to get the adrenaline gushing through your veins if any situation arises again - the dog can easily pick up the shaking - but lucky for you sassy just submitted.... with your face being that close gritting teeth, sassy could have veered upa nd gotcha in the face. this is serious stuff.

whatcha do at the end of the pin is begin petting her after she is calm and submissive. this teaches her that being calm and sumbissive can get a reward of affection & calmning her down even more with rubs.

I have watched quite a few episodes of "The Dog Whisperer"

 In all those episodes,I do not recall him ever "rolling"a large or even a mid size dog,only toy breeds.Can someone point me to a particular show where he did roll a large breed dog?


  Personally I do not like the roll.In my own dogs and with all the dogs I have ever had,there was no need for it.I might have rolled them in play,and they trusted me enough to know it was play.I could easily have been on my back for the dog 50% of the time,and trusted them completely.I think this trust has always come around through my positive trust building and training.

 If you are still having a problem with aggression after you have established a full excersize and training regimine,and the dogs physical health is ok,then you may have to alter your methods.

  Not all dogs are a black and white issue.Alpha rolling, I believe, should be for a last resort and for a very minimal % of the dog population.These dogs probably wouldn't be in a normal family setting,and all  precautions should be taken to prevent situations where a roll is needed.