Why You Should NOT Alpha Roll a Dog

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: houndlove

    MP, same with us. We were told to do it, almost as a prophylaxis against our dogs trying to take over our house. It wasn't a self-esteem thing, we were just doing what we thought was best based on what various "professionals" and "knowledgable dog people" had told us. But that kind of attitude--not just the alpha rolls but the whole dominance 'OMG my dogs will take over the house if I don't bully them constantly' paradigm--DID effect the relationship I had with my dogs, and not positively. It made me sort of be in a bit of a war with them--a war that neither of us wanted to fight but I kept pressing the issue with them. It created an antagonistic rather than a partnership relationship. These are dogs who never once showed any desire whatsoever to be anything other than lovely, docile, friendly dogs. But this idea that ALL dogs will try to be alpha if you present even the smallest chink in your "armour" makes it so every little thing they do, every mistake they make or habit they have, becomes evidence that they are trying to be "dominant" and therefor you, the owner, must put on these dominance displays to "put them in their place." The alpha rolling just seemed to be a symptom of that broader mindset.


    The funny thing is that every truly "dominant" dog I've witnessed seems to achieve and maintain that status by fewer and fewer "dominance displays."  It's the status climbers that are frequently trying to put others in their place.  If you've got something to prove, chances are you're not really in charge. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

    we are speaking of dominant/agressive dogs, are we not?

    certainly not fear/aggressive dogs - which nobody should EVER go alpha roll on.


    back to the idea that fear kills spirit:

    gazelles are hunted by tigers and the presense of a lion instills fear in the pack of gazelles that flee for thier lives. this happens alot - but is their spirit (life energy) broken?

    now what if you captured a gazelle, put in a cage, and rattle the cage every day, every hour - that may very well break the animals spirit.


    So lions hunting gazelles is like alpha rolling?  What?  I don't even see how the two can be compared.

    When working with prey animals their fear is a very real and possibly dangorous thing.  I have known people who have been killed by a horse attempting to flee something that is frightening it, and more then a few horses have literally killed themselves in an attempt to escape a situation that they fear.  While a little fear may be a healthy thing if you are being hunted by lions daily, fear can be very damaging in domestic situations.  I have never met a decent horse trainer that believes in fear as a training tool. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: sillysally

    ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

    back to the idea that fear kills spirit:

    gazelles are hunted by tigers and the presense of a lion instills fear in the pack of gazelles that flee for thier lives. this happens alot - but is their spirit (life energy) broken?

    now what if you captured a gazelle, put in a cage, and rattle the cage every day, every hour - that may very well break the animals spirit.


    So lions hunting gazelles is like alpha rolling?  What?  I don't even see how the two can be compared.

     I have never met a decent horse trainer that believes in fear as a training tool. 


    I believe that's because fear is NOT a good way to inspire trust. Trust is the most harmonious way to coexist with another animal, regardless of how wild/domestic it is. Maybe gazelle's don't have a broken spirit by living on the edge, but they sure don't trust anything that looks like a predator. My wild hare insinctively flips out every time anything at all gives him a predatory stare. His spirit is fine, but he far from trusts anyone giving him a stare. When he doesn't feel trustful, there's no getting anywhere near him to bestow headstrokes and offer raisins, that's for sure. And when my dog doesn't feel trustful of me, she becomes very difficult to get through to. She doesn't listen to me and she behaves infuriatingly.

    As I assume the point of any training or interaction with a domestic dog is to get it to pay attention to you and hopefully learn something so you like the way it behaves, my feeling is that the last thing you ever want to do is undermine the trust between you. I'm sure not going to risk doing that by alpha rolling anyone. It's not worth it. Sometimes you've got to be patient and earn trust if you want your relationship with your animals to be pleasant.


    • Gold Top Dog
    Can someone point me to a particular show where he did roll a large breed dog?

     
    I don't remember the name of the episode but he was walking a client's DA female Pit Bull and she reacted to one of his helper dogs and grabbed her by the scruff, pinned her down, and pushed her onto her side.
    • Gold Top Dog
    A Dr. Mech performed a 30-year study on dogs at Yale and UC Berkeley. 19 years of the study was devoted to social behavior of a dog pack. (Not a wolf pack. A DOG pack.) Some of his findings:
    * Male dogs have a rigid hierarchy.
    * Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable.
    * When you mix the sexes, the rules get mixed up. Males try to follow their constitution, but the females have "amendments."
    * Young puppies have what's called "puppy license." Basically, that license to do most anything. Bitches are more tolerant of puppy license than males are.
    * The puppy license is revoked at approximately four months of age. At that time, the older middle-ranked dogs literally give the puppy hell -- psychologically torturing it until it offers all of the appropriate appeasement behaviors and takes its place at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The top-ranked dogs ignore the whole thing.
    * There is NO physical domination. Everything is accomplished through psychological harassment. It's all ritualistic.
    * A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed. No one likes a dictator.
    * The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because... * Middle-ranked animals squabble. They are insecure in their positions and want to advance over other middle-ranked animals.
    * Low-ranked animals do not squabble. They know they would lose. They know their position, and they accept it.
    * "Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail to physically dominate. But they have earned the right to control the valued resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he simply couldn't care less.
    So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship?
    * Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle- ranked animals insecure in their place squabble.
    * To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, *you* are alpha by definition.
    * Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the "revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women, elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog. Very few people are capable of physical domination.
    * Reward deferential behavior, rather than pushy behavior. I have two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention, the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated. Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy.
    Your job is to be a leader, not a boss, not a dictator. Leadership is a huge responsibility. Your job is to provide for all of your dog's needs... food, water, vet care, social needs, security, etc. If you fail to provide what your dog needs, your dog will try to satisfy those needs on his own.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Three examples of Cesar pinning dogs from the other thread:

    1)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XERSle8oBeE&mode=related&search=

    2)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQYQY37JnVM&mode=related&search=

    3)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFGXDP6erSc&mode=related&search=



    Personally, I find them really disturbing to watch. Also, note the constricting collars they are wearing as they spin around on the end of their leashes.
    • Gold Top Dog
    [sm=backtotopic.gif]

    ... Please be respectful on a personal level and tell us why you believe this practice is wrong, and what you would do instead, when it comes to modifying the same behaviors that others would use that technique for. Pansy dogs, red zone dogs, any kind of dogs. Why does this outdated tactic NOT make sense to you?
    • Gold Top Dog
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    • Gold Top Dog
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    • Gold Top Dog
    luvmyswissy,
    thank you for posting this. is the study still on-going? as any scientific inquiry goes, nothing is every really finalized... as scientific methodologies are always in a state of refinement and evolution (ie, quantum cosmology to neuroscience to animal behavior)
     
    Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle- ranked animals insecure in their place squabble.

     
     
    okay - now what if you are outranked by a dominant/agressive dog. the dog assumes his (it could also be a she but i'll use the word, his) rank is above you. in order to switch the roles, you would have to oust his position to be lower than you and the dog is most likely going to resist being ousted. a "squabble" is going to happen in the most agressive relations.
     
    i don't think there are too many extremely dominant alpha dogs out there that are going to step aside and let a subordinant (human or otherwise) take control unless it becomes sick or injured - so it's up to the human to take the dominant mental state of mind away from the dominat/agressive dog with whatever tools work. in this case, a squabble does not signify insecurity - but rather, a clallenge and an intent to take over the leadership role.
     
    so in these rare cases where one has an extremely dominant/agressive dog where it is in a red-zone mental state of mind (wants to kill or maul), if one has the capacity and experience to put the dog on its side, then more power to that person - otherwise, call a professional.
     
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I simple don't have the physical strenght to alpha roll one of my giant breeds.  Although the reason for doing it is different, I am sure my vet and her asst does it all the time behind closed doors. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    so you don't believe that a single traumatic experience can permanently harm an animal (or human) psyche?   Post traumatic stress disorder is a big problem in humans, and is usually triggered by a single traumatic experience. 
     
    You don't think that poor jindo or whatever it is in that clip above is just going to shrug off being choked, fought, and forced to the ground?   Look at his face as he hits the ground, look at the absolute terror. He clearly thinks he's about to be killed.
    • Gold Top Dog
    lostcoyote and others,

    Laying out arguments for and against the merits of alpha rolls (aka debate) may be taken up in a new thread.

    This thread simply invites members to express and explain why they would *not* use it.

    If any of you have questions or concerns regarding forum policy, please visit:http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=413598&mpage=1&key=񤾢. Or contact me via PM.
    • Gold Top Dog
    no, dogs are not humans. they rapidly move on. they don't dwell on the past (empower past events in present time and feel sorry for themselves or regret that things happened one way when they wanted things to happen differently) like some humans like to do.
     
    this is what is called "humanizing dogs" - thinking that dogs take on human psychological attributes across the board.
    • Gold Top Dog
    So...

    I have a friend with a shiba inu who is afraid of loud noises. Once he was in the house and the fire alarm went off. The dog is now terrified of coming in the house to the point where he has now been put on clomicalm. This dog has not moved on. He may not be "dwelling on past events" like humans do by going over the exact event or memory over and over and preseverating on it, but clearly he has made an association that the house is a bad scary place because of that event.