Why You Should NOT Alpha Roll a Dog

I would not because I can't think of a more vulnerable position to put myself in, with a dog that's aggressing. For a dog that's "not listening", there's 101 other ways to get a dog's attention that don't involve putting him in a confusing and terrifying position and putting my life and limb in danger.

Specifically, putting a dog on his back allows him free use of teeth AND claws. Also, he can use his whole back, neck, and tail (if he's got one) to wriggle free, plus his feet if they can get purchase on something (say, the arms you've conveniently put within reach?). An emergency hold on a dog involves folding his feet under him, with you behind and well out of biting range, head held on the ground. This takes advantage of the fact that the muscles to extend joints are many times weaker than the ones which close them, particularly the jaws.

That's a safety precaution for an out-of-control dog. Alpha rolls used as corrections also go against what I was taught in Corrections 101 - always give the dog freedom to "give" to you - in equal proportion to the level of correction. What can the dog do to appease you if you and he are crunched up in a little ball on the ground together? I've seen the result of that kind of unfairness on your average dog and it's not pretty.

Finally, alpha rolls are not an objective type of correction. They work well for big men with deep voices and split second timing, for small women with squeaky voices and wishy washy timing (raising hand here) - not so much. I tried it exactly once and hated it, knew it wasn't right for me, felt the disadvantage immediately - it was the one huge method difference I had with my late friend and trainer, at the time, though I've discovered more now, lol.

It's also a very different type of correction even coming from the same person, depending on when and where you catch the dog, how you put it down, and how you handle the dog on the ground once it's there. Even the slightest difference can make a huge difference to the dog, it's such an intense interaction - it's like the physical version of the shock collar - screw up the timing one way or another and you could be sending a totally different message to the dog than the one you intended.

I am one of maybe a few here that have used a scruff. Shadow would usually lower himself and roll himself. That is, the roll is offered by the beta or omega dog as an appeasement to end the conflict. The pin is not started by the alpha. In a real dog fight or wolf fight, the aggressor is trying to break skin an inflict damage, not just get a good position in. When the other has enough, they lower and roll to make themselves vunerable, conceding victory to the other. So, making the dog lower and roll does not make the dog automatically switch gears. Even if momma dog would pin a puppy, it was momentary to stop the action at the moment, and would be repeated as necessary until the pup went on to do something else. That is, the pin doesn't train, it only stops the action for that moment.
 
I don't use the scruff any more because commanding another behavior works better and can be done at a distance.

Because it has the potential to utterly destroy any trust the dog may have in you. Permanently.
 
Because you may get bitten and that's not good for you or for the dog. It is much easier to prevent the first bite than successive bites.
 
Because it is not necessary to bully a dog to gain obedience.

Why You Should NOT Alpha Roll a Dog:

You are angry or otherwise emotionally out of control
You don't know enough about the dog you are working with
You're not sure why you're doing it, or what you aim to accomplish with it
You have no idea how to follow up afterwards

1) There might be a time and a place for it.
2) There might be a dog whose behavior will benefit long-term from having this done.
3) There very well may be humans who can ull it off correctly.
4) There may very well be humans who fit #3 and can recognize when #1 and #2 are appropriate.
 
Most however do not and cannot. The potential for damage is huge, and when weighed against the potential benefit is not worth it. I am satisfied to leave it to professionals, which most of us are not.
 

I am satisfied to leave it to professionals, which most of us are not.

 
I think this is a very valid statement. But...I have to caution others against believing that just because someone is a professional they are good for your dogs.
 
I had an experience a few years ago when I was trying to integrate my mother's dog into our household. He was plain dog aggressive, but not on leash. It simmered with him. I Selected a trainer with 20 years experience and a great website. So trainer knows all. Well mom's dog was human submissive, especially for men, so he saw no problem with him. Tasha & Wolfie were a little undertrained and very bouncy, confident dogs. He STARTED the training by putting prong collars OVER their heads. A prong should never go over the head. One false move from those two equalled a yank hard enough to get a yelp. We fired him after one session although we'd paid for more.
 
His solution to the dog aggression problem was to never leave them alone and have them all submissive all the time. He wanted all three dogs to wear stim collars.
 
Yes, I guess this would work, but I like that Tasha & Wolfgang play when I'm not around. I like that Tasha play bows when she sees us. I like that Wolfgang presents objects to us.  DH ended up with a nasty bite, and being pepper sprayed by me while breaking it up, Wolfgang was introduced to aggression (he was just short of two).
 
We found a good behavioralist and re-set the goals. The first goal was to separate the dogs. I took mom's dog back to her house and stayed there.
 
The second goal was that mom's dog needed a home. Mom was dying. So....we set forth to optimize this dog's strenghts. Mom's friend said she'd take him and as a single woman with no dogs it sounded like a decent fit. But she cancelled. The dog was good with kids and cats. Decent with men, although some made him nervous. And....he was an exceptionally handsome dog. By working with him on the things that could be worked with, and emphasizing his strenghts, he got an excellent home. They still e-mail me on his adoption date.
 
The third goal was that Wolfgang needed to be resocialized to large, adult males. A few good dogs around the Wolfers and he's a great dog.
 
We later did adopt a third dog that fits in fine.
 
Sometimes the right answer isn't necessarily making it work. I don't want my dogs in a perpetually submissive state. I want them to listen and to do certain things, but I really do want them to express themselves.
 
It was painful to let my mom's dog do to strangers. But he, and they were evaluated by the real behavioralist and he's happy. My two dogs are happy and so is the third we added.

ORIGINAL: Sham85

Every person I know who does alpha rolls has timid stressed out dogs that suffer problems such as submissive urination and even fear biting.  I would say it's just way more than is necessary for most dogs and causes too much emotional stress.  I have on occasion pinned my akita on her side for a second when she completely ignored a sharp no several times in a row and was about to do something very bad like jump on the cat.  After seeing how she reacted to alpha rolls that her previous owner did I will never try it on any dog.  I've never seen it be successful and I have never seen a dog do it to another dog.  I've seen dogs knock each other sideways and stand over the downed dog (on it's side unless it rolls farther by itself) but never actually flip the other dog upside down except in a serious attack where they are driving at the other dog's stomach or throat with intent to kill.  Maybe if you really need to get an agressive dog on the ground to avoid it doing injury to another human or animal but such a dog would probably bite you before you accomplished the task.  I'm sure there's a better way to handle such a situation without engaging the dog in a physical fight.

I can honestly say that in my entire life I have NEVER seen anyone Alph Roll a dog or even try.  I don't think it was ever a popular move.  I still have never seen anyone roll their dogs. 

Do you seriouosly know people who Alpha Roll their dogs?

*raises hand in past tense*

We did it with our first two dogs (one of them now at the bridge), as a "dominance technique" as talked about in the original edition of the Monks of New Skete's book. We also scruffed and did what DH used to refer to as a "shake job". And both were just ridiculous things to do with our dogs, especially Conrad who from day one was submissive, meek, biddable and anxiety-prone. Yeah, way to go us. But at the time I'd been led to believe that dogs crave nothing so much as to be dominated, that that ultimately makes them happy. When I was allowing Conrad to misbehave (what I would not interperate as him being confused or improperly managed by us), I was allowing him to advance his rank, which would make him more anxious and unhappy, so I had to take him down a peg by dominating in order to make him know his lower status and therefor be less anxious and happier. I feel terribly guilty about what we did with him but at the time I really thought I was fulfilling his desire to be dominated and put in his place, physically if need be.

Needless to say, given that both these dogs were wonderful, biddable, friendly, non-aggressive dogs, the rolling was pretty easy and they pretty much rolled themselves and they never fought back. We're very lucky.

I'm going to separate this into 2 questions.

1. Why *I* would not Alpha Roll MY dog:

I don't need to. I have organised my life, my training regime with Ben and every aspect of my dog ownership to preclude anything but positive interaction with him. Plus, I like my face. Although Ben is an extremely non-aggressive dog, if I WERE suddenly to Alpha Roll him after over a year of positive training, he would probably be so scared and confused he would lash out.

2. Why I don't think dogs should be Alpha Rolled:

Any situation that might really, truly warrant it is going to be so terrifying that the owner is HIGHLY unlikely to do it correctly, and any ordinary dog owner who has actually done this enough that the action is instinctively done properly even in that situation has used the technique too much. In any normal situation, that is to say non-terrifying and one in which the owner is calm enough to perform the Alpha Roll properly, there is no need to use it. It's killing a housefly with a sledgehammer.

I understand that there are trainers out there who can do this, and do it properly....even then I don't agree with the use of the technique, but I am happy to leave it to them if it must occasionally be done.

Dog training has changed. What used to be OK, or advocated by experts, is in many cases no longer seen as acceptable. We are adaptable creatures who can learn new behaviours, and SO ARE OUR DOGS. I think it does dogs an IMMENSE disservice to fail to progress our own techniques when we have the ability to do that. A dog does not need to be Alpha Rolled...it's the owner who needs to do the Alpha Rolling.....I fail to see how that is in the best interests of either the dog or the owner.

This brings up an interesting question in my mind, but I don't want to derail this thread so I will post a new one.

Dog training has changed. What used to be OK, or advocated by experts, is in many cases no longer seen as acceptable. We are adaptable creatures who can learn new behaviours, and SO ARE OUR DOGS.

 
That's one of my views, too. There are better, more effective ways to change behavior than gross physical domination.
 

Good point Ron.  And while I outweigh my dogs, they are a good deal STRONGER than I am .

ORIGINAL: Benedict
 It's killing a housefly with a sledgehammer.

Beautifully put! 

I have NEVER seen a dominant dog physically grab hold of a dog and roll them over,i have never seen a mother dog flip their youngsters on their backs.
I have however seen dogs roll over on their backs submissively to another dog,but this was of their own accord.

I think this concept,as with all similar methods, was thought up by a small man with an even smaller p***er!


(Content edited - profanity.)

ORIGINAL: Edie

I have NEVER seen a dominant dog physically grab hold of a dog and roll them over,i have never seen a mother dog flip their youngsters on their backs.
I have however seen dogs roll over on their backs submissively to another dog,but this was of their own accord.

I think this concept,as with all similar methods, was thought up by a small man with an even smaller p***er!


(Content edited - profanity.)

Neither have I.  I wonder if the people who believe that dogs "alpha roll" each other are actually seeing the "rollee" flipping over on their back at the last second when they see the "roller" coming at them.  This happened with Sally not too long after we got her.  She was about a year old and very puppyish still and was pestering an 8 month old husky to play with her.  The husky wheeled around, open mouthed, and as she came at her Sally very quickly flipped over and froze while the husky stood over her with her jaws over her throat.  I could see how someone would think that the husky was forcing her over, but Sally is a pretty solidly built 50 lbs, and if she did not want to be on her back, I don't think she would have ended up there so quickly and fluidly.

I would not alpha roll a dog because I don't like physical contests. A matter of personal style. That and I think it's mean and pointless and does nothing for trust, and I consider trust to be about the most important facet of my relationship with my animals. There's no way I'd deliberately do anything to undermine the trust my animals have in me.

I don't think anyone should alpha roll any dog because I don't think it's a message dogs understand, for the same reasons Edie outlined. I think it's man's way to try to dominate anything and everything. I was just pondering this morning who started the trend of putting the word 'wild' into anything to do with nature. I think it says a lot for how people tend to see anything they don't really understand. They see it as chaos, and they seek to bring order to it. I'm glad humans are slowly getting over this mentality. For the most part. There's a lot of beauty in chaos if one looks, and there's a lot of order to the 'wild' if one knows where to look.